@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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BelligerentGnu

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IronStylus has essentially mentioned that they're looking at fixing things like similar silhouettes and other shape-language that lessens variety - but while keeping a stylistic consistency to League of Legends. This character has a fish for a body, but you're so over-focused on the breasts issue that you can't see the forest for the trees. Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.
I think you're maybe doing a little forest-for-treesing yourself here, Morello. True, until this point LoL hasn't had a mermaid-style champ - but it *does* have Rengar, Hecarim, Cassiopeia, Warwick, Nasus, Renekton, Udyr, Twitch and Wukong. Anthropomorphic champs aren't that unusual. More to the point, while Ironstylus may or may not have been talking about overall silouhette variation, this thread and others like it are talking about a specific kind of variation - the presence of markers of sexualization in a champion.

There's something I think of as the Halloween phenomenon - that is, a number of champions look like they purchased a sexy-[blank] costume rather than going fully with their concept. Zyra, for example, could have looked something more like this - http://bit.ly/107EFE2 - and Elise's human form suffers the same issue, although transforming into a giant spider makes up for a lot. Nami I think is on the lower end of this scale, but isn't without troubles. Despite the fact that in some ways she's a very monstrous champ, she still has a human skin coloured torso (reinforcing the woman-in-a-mermaid-suit look), an hourglass figure, and a heavy visual emphasis on her boobs. (its less a matter of size, though thats a factor, than of framing)

Diana proved that a female champ doesn't need to be sexual to be badass or attractive (I'll repeat what I said at the time - you guys really knocked it out of the park with her.) And as for male champs, I'd point out Singed and Swain as good examples of the kind of variety we're looking for in female champs. One is old and walks with a cane; the other is tall, skinny and lanky.

I guess it boils down to this. A lot of the time it feels like Riot's 'default setting' for female champion design is "variant on sexy woman." All we're really seeking is a default setting of "variant on woman" - which will sometimes be sexy, and sometimes more like Singed/Swain, but will most often be more like Diana, or Leona, or Katniss from The Hunger Games, or Korra from Avatar.


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Gixia

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
This discussion is the type of thing that does influence what people like though, and as such it is important to some people. While I can understand how not everyone would enjoy taking part in such a conversation, I do still feel it's important to have it.

I'm in the camp of people who loves Nami's look. Already, she looks like she's gonna be one of my favourite champions from a visual standpoint. But her being fantastic doesn't make up for previous champions being disappointing (Zyra), or downright terrible (Elise).

Standing up, making opinions heard is the way to let you, the creators who want to make what people like know 'hey, this is what I like, this is why I like it. This is what I don't like, this is why I think it sucks', in order to hopefully result in more things that more people like.

Of course, everyone likes different things, and what I think is awful, someone else likes. But that just makes it even more important for people to make their voices heard. As an example, if everyone stayed quiet except for the people who like Miss Fortune, then the only champions we'd ever get would be MF clones, because you make what people like, and since that's all anyone talks about, that must be the only thing they like, right? But then there are people who want different stuff, so they speak up, and they say they want Leona. And now somebody else wants Varus. And then other people want a female Cho'Gath. And that guy over there wants more Draven. And then some weirdo wants Teemo. And it goes on and on. Because voicing our differences of opinion and different desires for champions we'd like to see is how we'll let you know that what we like is more variety and more things that are different. This conversation needs to happen, and it needs to keep happening to make sure it's known that there are people on all sides who all want different things, lest some of them get swept under the rug and forgotten or ignored in favour of always making more MFs.

EDIT: And right now, people are saying they want more female variety still, especially in regards to body type and sexuality. As much as I like and am happy Nami's look, I still see the side that views her as being the same sort of body type/sexualization, and in many ways I share it. Just having a fish tail doesn't necessarily change her body type much. From the top up, Nami is still very similar in proportion to most other LoL women, where men still get hulks like Mundo, lanky skinny guys like Singed, monsters like Cho'Gath, anthros like Rengar, yordles, casual guys like Ezreal, or beefy guys like Tryndamere. Female body types in-game simply don't vary that much like the men do, and now people are asking that they get a piece of the pie instead of being swept aside.


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Raolan

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I wouldn't have a problem with the body types... except that Valve seems capable of non-hypersexualized characters that still feel badass while Riot still can't handle it.

No. of unnecessarily sexualized females in DotA 2: 2.

No. of unnecessarily sexualized females in LoL: 15.

The games are designed differently though so just deal with it. One sells primarily using *** appeal.


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Venova

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Part of That Roll.
You are now my favorite Rioter!


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TheWheatOne

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it means some people have a very vocal opinion and want to express it until it is resolve to their personal satisfaction. That may or may not align with what is right for our game and our players.

Excuse me for a moment, I need to speak very candidly about this issue and I may be representing my personal (as opposed to Riot) views here;

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IronStylus has essentially mentioned that they're looking at fixing things like similar silhouettes and other shape-language that lessens variety - but while keeping a stylistic consistency to League of Legends. This character has a fish for a body, but you're so over-focused on the breasts issue that you can't see the forest for the trees. Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.

All of the male characters (that we're happy with...) have strong musculature and other traditionally powerful, male features. All of our females have identifiable femininity in their forums, and that is played up or down based on the archetype. Nami is one of the better-received champion sneak peeks we've seen, so players enjoy it, and accomplishes variety from a lot of angles.

For context, did you know Miss Fortune is the most popular character among female League players? Sona is #2 - something that is appealing to the eye is more aspirational and has a higher "cool quotient" than things that are not - even without hormones in the equation (unless their cool is based on an opposing feature (Kog'Maw, for example)).

We want to offer variety, and earlier this year we talked a lot about improving that. A mermaid is pretty varied when compared to other female champions, and if it has breasts, or not isn't something I think is a focal point of things that actually matter - especially when we do have strong female characters like Diana, Leona or Riven.

The art team's thoughts as a whole may deviate from what I just posted (they know more about forms and shape language than I by miles), but if we do provide variety, and we do provide good alternatives to exposed characters, then from a holistic standpoint, I'd call that successful. If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
Definitely saving this for future reference. Thank you Morello.


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Venova

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We're working on this now - I definitely agree.
I want the younger voice! Don't make her a hag!


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CiaphasCainX

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BelligerentGnu View Post
I think you're maybe doing a little forest-for-treesing yourself here, Morello. True, until this point LoL hasn't had a mermaid-style champ - but it *does* have Rengar, Hecarim, Cassiopeia, Warwick, Nasus, Renekton, Udyr, Twitch and Wukong. Anthropomorphic champs aren't that unusual. More to the point, while Ironstylus may or may not have been talking about overall silouhette variation, this thread and others like it are talking about a specific kind of variation - the presence of markers of sexualization in a champion.

There's something I think of as the Halloween phenomenon - that is, a number of champions look like they purchased a sexy-[blank] costume rather than going fully with their concept. Zyra, for example, could have looked something more like this - http://bit.ly/107EFE2 - and Elise's human form suffers the same issue, although transforming into a giant spider makes up for a lot. Nami I think is on the lower end of this scale, but isn't without troubles. Despite the fact that in some ways she's a very monstrous champ, she still has a human skin coloured torso (reinforcing the woman-in-a-mermaid-suit look), an hourglass figure, and a heavy visual emphasis on her boobs. (its less a matter of size, though thats a factor, than of framing)

Diana proved that a female champ doesn't need to be sexual to be badass or attractive (I'll repeat what I said at the time - you guys really knocked it out of the park with her.) And as for male champs, I'd point out Singed and Swain as good examples of the kind of variety we're looking for in female champs. One is old and walks with a cane; the other is tall, skinny and lanky.

I guess it boils down to this. A lot of the time it feels like Riot's 'default setting' for female champion design is "variant on sexy woman." All we're really seeking is a default setting of "variant on woman" - which will sometimes be sexy, and sometimes more like Singed/Swain, but will most often be more like Diana, or Leona, or Katniss from The Hunger Games, or Korra from Avatar.

I'ma let you finish, but for reference, Swain isn't old. He's actually young-ish if not middle aged. He just has a cane because he refused treatment for his leg to give it to soldiers who were more severely wounded. Xilean would be a better example in this case.

EDIT: Also, why does no one ever bring up Anivia in these arguments? She's female and about as sexual as a turnip. Also, the female Yordles. Them too. And Leona (Heels aside) isn't sexual either.


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Darkscape1

Junior Member

11-18-2012

First before I start my rant know that I expect that a lot of what I am saying here has already be said at one point or another in this thread and I am sorry for repeating these details. I really wasn’t interested enough to ready the 100+ pages on this thread but I did want to voice my opinion of this issue.
************************************************** ***********************************

This is a thread that I find interesting. Unlike the ‘save twisted treeline’ thread of late, this thread is linked to something outside of the game itself; an issue concerning the moral fabric of our society and equality between men and women … this is a thread about boobs.

But what are boobs? The dictionary defines the word as slang which refers to the mammary glands situated on a female’s chest. Commonly a human woman has two of them and each is about an average of
14 inches in circumference and 3 inches in radius. These glands produce milk which help feed newborns in the months after birth.

So why is this ‘word’ an issue? Well, some would argue about the realism represented in the popular game League of Legends, a fantasy game involving a river, some trees, a couple rocks, and a lot of people wasting time killing each other. Female champions in this game are drawn in a way which some would call offensive, each adhering to definition of beauty which is only being upheld for the sake of being upheld. Every single curve of their bodies being attributed to a mathematical formula in the brain of the artist to help bring out the desired emotional response from the consumer. A formula which is the perfect blend of poise, stability, and seduction.

So what could be wrong with adhering to this definition of beauty? Many feel that this is not a fair way to represent women, that Riot Games is exploiting this formula to sell skins for their female champions. This may be true, there are currently 66 skins on sale now (plus basic skins) that show cleavage (or can be interrupted as sexual in nature), and at the rate of success Riot Games is currently enjoying it can be assumed that people are spending money on these skins. So if in fact Riot Games is collecting money by exploiting this definition of beauty to make money that sure would be a problem. Before jumping the boat, however, lets examining this further.

This thread is a new thread in a long line of threads complaining about this issue. This particular thread is was sparked by the appearance of 2 relatively new champions to the league, Elise and Nami. Before examining each by itself I want to comment on the fact that I find it funny how two non-human female champions drawn in a way that supposedly exploits women rekindled this argument, where in fact we should be holding these champions above the scrutiny of realism due to the fact that each champion is a figment of fantasy and do not exist in our world.

Elise: I went ahead and read her lore and as I expected Elise’s seductive manor is in fact very important to her character, something which has been ignored by the majority of those preaching against Riot’s artists. Let me quote the first line, “Vicious and elegant, Elise’s charismatic grace lures the innocent and greedy alike to her web of deceit. While her victims may discover her true intentions, no one has ever lived to reveal what secrets lie behind her enigmatic guise”. I wouldn’t even call this innuendo, its more like softcore horrotica. Some spider’s use smells to attract their prey to their web; If she is trying to attract the greatest prey of them all, man, then what better way than to attract them the easiest way of all, in a seductive manor. My second point is also supported by her lore. She is not some super evolved spider/woman, she is the result of transformation through dark worship. No one said she was a ‘triple D cup hotty’ before the transformation but maybe her dark god granted her these feature as a reward for service. Finally, people have been saying she should be scary cause she is a spider. What’s scarier, a giant spider in the distance or a woman that invites you in for some tea and then turns into a spider when your back is turned.

Nami: This one I shouldn’t really have to explain but I guess I have to due to the fact that people still don’t seem to get that she is a Mermaid! Mermaids are the envy of sailors because the sailors didn’t bring women on their vessels and sometimes it could take weeks to get to their destination. So basically a lonely sailor said, ‘I wonder if there is a half woman/ half fish creature somehow out here in the middle of this ocean. If there was, all my problems would be solved.’ And so the myth of the Mermaid was born. Mermaids also derive from sirens, who in turn are derived from harpies, who in turn are derived from nymphs, all of which were temptresses. I also saw someone say that she has the ‘face and voice’ of a preteen and her burst was disturbing do to this fact. She is not human so why would you think that she was a preteen based on appearance and sound. She could be fully matured or perhaps even ancient, we can’t know because Mermaids aren’t real, so you will have to take Riot‘s word on that.

So in turn the whole ‘these female characters don’t need to be seductive in nature’ argument is poorly informed. If Riot wants to stay true to the characters that they create, they have to in turn make their appearance match their personality and origin. Its not like Riot is the first entity to do this. This definition of beauty has been over 3 thousand years in the making and if Riot wants to stay true to the fantasy genre they have to also stay true to the conditions in which the genre was presented (at least to a degree).

The only reason why men have more diversity in the League then women is because as a whole the fantasy genre has more diversity among men than women. Riot is only continuing this trend because A, it works, and B, because all of their champions are based on concepts that have already been done before. Do you think that Riot made up the Nine Tailed Fox? Or that Riot was the first to create a prince who is a dragon hunter, or a hyper evolving insect, or blind martial artist. These are concepts which have been around for years and Riot is just trying to respect their original state.

I’m not saying I would do it the way Riot has. For one, Caitlyn is a sherif and should really be trying to represent the town in a better way than walking around with no pants on. Ashe is from a cold place and should be wearing clothes that represent that. Evelyn needs new skins that don’t have her wearing only straps and belts. Sona’s basic skin needs to be redone or edited to reflect that with those large breasts and that much low riding cleavage, realism dictates that you would be able to see her nipples. Holiday skins should probably be toned down as far as seduction goes. But look on the bright side, those 66 skins were out of 141 current female skins, meaning that only 46% percent of the females skins in the game can be viewed as seductive. The whole argument that players don’t have options is ****. The only two people that scored 100% of their skins as seductive are Miss Fortune and Sona.

So what does this mean to you? I’ve laid that facts out for you to decide what to do with. You can either see that Riot is just trying to make an immersive authentic fantasy game or you can continue to preach against unrealistic features that support an unfair agenda against women. Seeing how these are both opinions, both of these are correct but as in most other places in society only one opinion will effect the out come of this issue. Understand that if you are against how Riot portrays women, then complaining on the forums is not you voting. Down voting is also not voting. In a capitalist society the only way you can vote is with your money. Don’t buy skins that you don’t think portrays women in a favorable light, don’t buy champions you don’t think portrays women in a favorable light, don’t purchase ANY Riot points until Riot starts to portray women in a favorable light, and ultimately quit playing LoL because Riot never started to portrays women in a favorable light by your definition. Know that if everyone also shared your opinion on this issue that Riot would have already stopped making seductive skins because they weren’t making any money. Blame your peers, not Riot, because they are the ones dictating the market. If they didn’t want these skins, they wouldn’t be buying them. Know that this is Riots world and they can do anything they want in there. They could make the whole game into a Neo-Nazi propaganda scheme and you wouldn’t be able to do anything about it other than not buy Riot points. Riot controls LoL, not you, and what you put on this thread is opinions not commands. The only reason it feels like they aren’t listening to you is because they aren’t listening to you.

And finally know that if you really care about feminism than you stop complaining about a stupid video game that has absolutely no impact on the real world and dedicate your life to helping woman in third world countries, women who don’t have time to speculate about art that includes the female form and whether it is offensive when they are a single mother with five sick kids and a job that pays 50 cents an hour.

That about raps it up, see you next time a social issue gets stuck where they don’t belong

:3 Meow


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Drakeil

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

Out of the sea.

Wished she could be.

Part of that roll.



..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.
This... was epic... Thank you for that!


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Ginga

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Recruiter

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We're working on this now - I definitely agree.
I'm sure you've seen from the replies that a number of people liked her voice.


Is it possible to create a POLL to ask for community opinion on this one?


I personally like the adorable naive feel her current voice gives off. While some people may hate it, we don't know how many there are compared to those who either like it or is fine with it.


Could you do something like a POLL for it like you guys did when you changed Infinite Light to Final Spark months ago?


PS - but if you do change it...could it keep the cute sounding+naive angle and change whatever it is that's problematic? Or just using some sound effect magic to distort her voice or something? Like giving it some underwater or gurgle effect?