I'm trying out the new jungle in the pbe

First Riot Post
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Gløry

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Sejuani with leash looks like it might be okay...the important point is that it doesn't look like too many people are going to be wanting to invade each other early, so her subsequent clears might be more and more okay.

The proof will be in the pudding, though. What's she gonna do on the second and third go-rounds, with no blue buff? Her DPS drops considerably, since she can't keep W up as often (damn you amumu and your indefinite duration W, so much better for the same mana per second).

At least her item prospects are kind. Ruby sight stone looks legit, as does the golem spirit stone upgrade.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-17-2012
3 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall008 View Post
I'm still holding my full judgement till I get to throw down with more experienced players. The commentary on the Lee Sin was too harsh. I should have waited till I played more champions. When I got to Darius and Diana I was thrilled. I knew Diana would be a jungler that could possibly benefit but Darius ended up doing well too.

That said there isn't any way to "measure" the gold gains yet. I mean if I just go into a custom game and continuously clear it over and over then yeah I could probably see me gaining a lot of gold. However in a real game I'm sure I won't be allowed to do that.

There is where the problem lies though. PBE games, with respect to everyone in there, is generally full of players who aren't exactly "good." Either that or the teams are mismatched and you can't truly gauge anything.

I hope that sometime this weekend I can get some people in the PBE to join a serious 5v5 custom fest and we can test out how the new jungle holds up. I want to experience being invaded, experience being forced to gank and all that jazz.

When I jungled uninterrupted (aka just fiddling around) I had this feeling that I could outright skip gold items and had this reminiscent feeling of Season 1. Though I still felt I will need to buy a few gold efficient items because everyone and their mother will want to kill me.

So with that said - with some testing still pending - I did feel the gold gains and I do think it will be fine as long as the lanes don't require massive amounts of intervention aside from player failure. The gold gains will only truly be felt if the lanes don't need to be babysat 24/7. If the laner needs help because they got outplayed then yeah that's fine. Forcing out a farming jungler is one way of defeating them. However if your the lane is so dependent on snowballing (like it is in season 2) and you have to essentially camp it still then the gold gains won't help every jungler.

I want to ask something though - Is Riot okay with the possibility of there being Control Junglers with the capability of utterly shutting down the enemy jungler? There used to be this clear cut triad of junglers before and the control jungler filled the role of map control and making sure the enemy jungler was pinned down and unable to function.

Edit - It's in bold

Edit 2 - Admittedly I think Riot wants people to be a bit more patient right now with all the changes before spouting travesty. I admit that I am guilty of having done that with Lee Sin but I had set my expectations for him to be way too high. Even then I haven't given up on Lee Sin. I feel I can tweak around how i work the jungle with him and things can be better. With all these changes coming at us at once, we all need to adopt more patience than usual.
Yeah - that's where we want to look most closely. While we know the raw numbers and have had testing, the circumstances that millions of games show can help us see if our methods are successful or not. We expect less early ganks from the jungle now, because the early game impact of them was so high and we wanted to lower it - players' expectations will need to align with what's optimal again. This applies to all the preseason changes really.

To answer your question, I think we are OK with more control-type junglers, but the scale of how harshly they control is the adjustment point for us to watch. Stealing the big monster is harder now, but even more important - meaning strong counterjungling has the potential to be devastating.


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c0ltron

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

Morello, I am curious what will happen with Hecarim's passive in S3. With base movement speed being buffed, and bonus movement speed being nerfed in general on any number of items, this would suggest a proxy nerf to him.

This would effect his jungle from whatever point he chooses to purchase boots.


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Brand of pain

Member

11-17-2012

As a jungle main, I don't look forward to being forced back down to a top 3 jungle champ list, as now where I can practically jungle anyone.


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Eat Orange Be K

Senior Member

11-17-2012

@Morello are you guys okay with us moving back to a more predictable jungle pattern? It seems between predictabilityreadability of jungle route vs early aggression, they are pretty mutually exclusive. I know a big motivator in the season 2 change was moving away from this: knowing where the jungler was 90% of the time even if you didn't see them, knowing exactly when they'd show up to gank took all the early presence off of the jungler. But it seems like it's an either-or situation (with the exception of a few very niche champion cases), that it's either going to be highly predictable or it's going to leave the door open for that big aggressive impact.

I don't fault if this is a reversal: sometimes you guys just don't know if it's the way you want to go until you see it in action. But was just curious if you're okay with this (or at least comparitively, in a lesser-of-two-evils way)


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by c0ltron View Post
Morello, I am curious what will happen with Hecarim's passive in S3. With base movement speed being buffed, and bonus movement speed being nerfed in general on any number of items, this would suggest a proxy nerf to him.

This would effect his jungle from whatever point he chooses to purchase boots.
The added 25 MS is actually counted as Bonus MS. If you start with no boots or MS stuff (just the base 350 MS) his passive gives him 2.5 AD, 10% of 25 bonus MS. Pretty neat, huh


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c0ltron

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
The added 25 MS is actually counted as Bonus MS. If you start with no boots or MS stuff (just the base 350 MS) his passive gives him 2.5 AD, 10% of 25 bonus MS. Pretty neat, huh
Better treatment than I was expecting. Pretty smooth.


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Kchaosrei

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

So to anyone that can clear up this term for me.

"control-type junglers" merlleo and stonewall both used this.

Does this mean stong invaders?(my friends and i just call them brusier junglers) junglers with cc or is there a special nitch of chars that fall in this?


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

11-17-2012

@Morello, a bit about Maokai and a concern I see in him. He's considered one of the best ganking Junglers and a Top Tier Jungler currently. In Stonewall's video Maokai was able to clear fairly fast (compared to others) and had almost full health with a health potion left. it's obvious that Maokai is just as good and will apply better pressure early on than other Junglers. Does internal testing show he will drop off later? Because I can forsee Maokai being the Best Jungler with good clear times, ganking, and early sustain, to the point he will be insta-picked/banned in 100% of games because of these facts. He begins to slow down in clear times against big monsters currently, so I hope this transfers over into S3, but right now I'm concerned there will be no downside to picking him.

I do realize you can't just point at a single Champion in a big alteration and say "change", but I'm concerned the goal of lowering early pressure won't be met if a threat like Maokai can exist


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Tetramaster

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
@Morello, a bit about Maokai and a concern I see in him. He's considered one of the best ganking Junglers and Top Tier Jungler currently. In Stonewall's video Maokai was able to clear fairly fast (compared to others) and had almost full health with a health potion left. it's obvious that Maokai is just as good and will apply better pressure early on than other Junglers. Does internal testing show he will drop off later? Because I can forsee Maokai being the Best Jungler with good clear times, ganking, and early sustain, to the point he will be insta-picked/banned in 100% of games because of these facts. He begins to slow down in clear times against big monsters currently, so I hope this transfers over into S3, but right now I'm concerned there will be no downside to picking him.

I do realize you can't just point at a single Champion in a big alteration and say "change", but I'm concerned the goal of lowering early pressure won't be meant if a threat like Maokai can exist
If the majority of the junglers are fine except for a few being too strong....

Expect them to get nerfed. As it stands, a good maokai jungler is AMAZING for ganks. That ability to root+mini knockup is devastating, even with the current jungle.