Just tried DotA2...

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Pheonix88

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11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Right and wrong:
- the system comes from WC3 and was forced onto Dota. There was no choice.
It doesn't balance the items and game better, but limits the item builds, what leads to easier balancing.
The system has its advantages, too.


You can't make any caster that is not meant to cast a carry.
Windrunner. She can't really be a carry, cause she uses int. Butterfly is useless on her and she needs to build mobility + high int. Her late game build also always needs one CC item (Guinsoo's normally).
There is no way you can experiment with the items and the her too much, cause nearly 50% of the items are bad for her.

AP carries in Dota? They don't exist.
Int means AA + support or tank + support late game. Some are also pure supports late game. They deal magical dmg early and can kill, but that doesn't mean they are carries in any way.

Windrunner can be built into a semi-carry role, as a lot of int heroes tend to be built, especially those in mid, or in the suicide lane. Which, to be completely honest, is more or less the role of an AP carry in LoL. You know, they get the early levels, and have a large early-mid game presence. But, when it comes to the very end of the game, the ad carry will always out DPS them if they are any good. The only difference is late game, in LoL, AP is for damage, and in DotA, int heroes are used for CC and some damage.
Plus, just to list off a few int carries, there is Obsidian Destroyer, Silencer, Skywrath mage, Krob, Necro, Tinker, Invoker, Enchantress (if she gets a good start), and Storm Spirit. Each one can effectively carry a game.
It's actually more likely to see an int hero carrying the late game in DotA, then to see an AP carry the late game in LoL.
And please, do not talk about limiting builds. If you think DotA limits your build more than LoL, then never compare the two before. (I may be wrong on you saying it limits more or not, if I am, then sorry I assumed that's what you were implying.)


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
It doesn't balance the items and game better, but limits the item builds, what leads to easier balancing.
The system has its advantages, too.
The only time this occurs is with Pudge and VS for blink dagger and anyone who has a bash ability--that's it.


Quote:
You can't make any caster that is not meant to cast a carry.
Aghanim's, Refresher, Veil of Discord, Ethereal Blade, and Orchid all amplify your magic damage directly and/or add additional damage to your auto-attack; casters can and do carry games; Not all casters scale very well LoL either and end up building things like Aegis, Shurelia's, etc---we call them "supports" in LoL though.

Quote:
Windrunner. She can't really be a carry, cause she uses int. Butterfly is useless on her and she needs to build mobility + high int. Her late game build also always needs one CC item (Guinsoo's normally).
So? You can build her as a hard-carry if you really want to, she just doesn't have the armor or durability that some agi heroes due to build this way though---and again, she's valued more for different reasons; her utility (shackle shot, and her synergy with Int utility items) and her pushing ability (Powershot is a pain to deal with if you're pushing early).


Quote:
There is no way you can experiment with the items and the her too much, cause nearly 50% of the items are bad for her.
She has access to all items; you can build things like Daedalus, MKB, etc on her, and she has a max AS steroid to boot; you can build her that way if you want to, she just does better building other things.

Quote:
AP carries in Dota? They don't exist.
Int means AA + support or tank + support late game. Some are also pure supports late game. They deal magical dmg early and can kill, but that doesn't mean they are carries in any way.
Been over this before; there are plenty of Int heroes who can carry--Leshrac, Storm Spirit, Invoker, Obsidian Destroyer, Silencer, Queen of Pain, Tinker, Lina, and Necrolyte all have carry potential. Take Necrolyte, for isntance--with a Bloodstone and Heart of Tarrasque, he can become literally unkillable in a team-fight.


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aCrAzYmAnWAlking

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Been over this before; there are plenty of Int heroes who can carry--Leshrac, Storm Spirit, Invoker, Obsidian Destroyer, Silencer, Queen of Pain, Tinker, Lina, and Necrolyte all have carry potential. Take Necrolyte, for isntance--with a Bloodstone and Heart of Tarrasque, he can become literally unkillable in a team-fight.
This. Everyone in LoL say that late-game Int heroes are trash, but some of them can carry with the proper build ^^

Also, don't call Obosidian Destroyer like that. Instead call him Outworld Destroyer, because his name is changed in Dota 2 and someone from LoL who starts playing the game won't understand which hero you're talking about (at least call him Harbringer, I believe a lot of these guys will search dota 2 wiki, or will read his lore or ability descriptions)


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NickPham

Senior Member

11-14-2012

This post really doesn't mean anything. All it tells you is that Dota 2 doesn't present itself well at the very start in its current beta form.

What I think needs to be noted is that the number of people who have played both Dota 2 and LoL extensively (100+ hours), but now play Dota 2 far outstrips the number of people who have chosen to stick to LoL. There's something special about Dota 2 that these people are experiencing, but the time investment and frustration involved with getting there isn't worth it for at best 30% more fun for many people who don't game quite as much.

I would say that I have many more ridiculously fun games on a regular basis in Dota 2 than I did in my year and a half of playing LoL. I can't pinpoint the source of this phenomenon, but this is certainly the case. If you ever decide to get competent at Dota 2, you'll learn to love little things like slow turn speeds and long animations. They add a sort of impact to your decision making. I don't really want to go in depth with it, but its something you'll experience if you decide Dota 2 is worth the time investment. I would say that, if you are playing more than 10 games of LoL a week, it's WELL worth your time to make the switch. Any less, and you'll take too long to get good at the game to actually enjoy it more than LoL.

Something that IS worth noting with Dota 2 is the pubbing atmosphere is EXTREMELY fun. This post sums it up pretty well.
www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/124uoj/im_so_incredibly_thankful_for_this_aspect_of_the/


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Rhydon My Stick

Junior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Right and wrong:
AP carries in Dota? They don't exist.
Int means AA + support or tank + support late game. Some are also pure supports late game. They deal magical dmg early and can kill, but that doesn't mean they are carries in any way.
Necrolyte, Leshrac, Tinker, Silencer, Outworld Destroyer, Nature's Prophet, Death Prophet, Queen of Pain and Storm Spirit would like to have a word with you. Oh, and Visage too if you're a beast with him.


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JollyRedmane

Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhydon My Stick View Post
Necrolyte, Leshrac, Tinker, Silencer, Outworld Destroyer, Nature's Prophet, Death Prophet, Queen of Pain and Storm Spirit would like to have a word with you. Oh, and Visage too if you're a beast with him.
+1 for the Visage shout out. I randomed him once, never looked back, and after MANY failures, managed to iron out my errors, at least most of them. He is an absolute monster. 2 familiars (3 with Aghanim's) that each have their own 1 second AoE stun + damage that also heals them and recharges their damage buff? Hell yea. But that also means you have to keep track of each familiar + Visage, and with the familiars, position and timing is everything. God I love Visage.

And the thing I love best about DOTA 2 is that my "favorite" hero can't be decided, because as much as I love dominating with Visage, I can also say the same about almost any other hero. Each one is rewarding in their own way. Even when I'm playing Spectre and have a 2/0/15 ratio. I played as support, and dammit I supported the hell out that game.

Which of course brings me to the next thing. No kill steals, because everyone understands that a certain kill is more important than lettin g the melee carry "try" to close the gap for the kill. Obviously carry heroes have kill priority, but not to the point where you get flamed because you (as a support) finished off a fleeing enemy while your carry was chasing.

I doubt if any of that made any sense, I'm tired. I just felt like gushing about the game.


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Orconem

Senior Member

11-14-2012

If anybody is interested in a beta key I have a spare one, feel free to add me on Steam if you're interested (same name as my forum name).


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Aircross

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakz NA View Post
I love Dota 2, but that sluggish feel is a bit too much for me. I actually like their shop. The game is absolutely awesome, except for dat sluggish engine.

Ugh. They need to fix that.
Turning speed is there for balance reasons. Range heroes don't completely own melee heroes, and it also prevents instant 180 degree hooks from Pudge.

Each hero also has their own base-attack-timer, which is that amount of windup the hero needs to perform before launching an attack.

This is also for balance, as melee heroes tend to have better BATs so that they can last hit easier.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aircross View Post
Each hero also has their own base-attack-timer, which is that amount of windup the hero needs to perform before launching an attack.

This is also for balance, as melee heroes tend to have better BATs so that they can last hit easier.
This is nitpicking, but so do the champions in LoL---as a matter of fact LoL 100% copied DotA's armor and attack speed system, formula wise, to a "T".

What you're think of is the attack animation, which is the delay (due to animation) before you actually auto-attack when the command is initiated on someone.

This is present in LoL, too, but the numbers aren't published and its not viewed as incredibly important to game balance (in part because you can't deny).


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SquidBlub

Senior Member

11-15-2012

The map in Dota is big but then again you can teleport for 135 gold and it has a 1 minute cooldown.

No Flash means you actually have to consider your positioning

LoL's champ system, at least for me, discourages learning new champs. It's like "Man, this guy looks cool but I already have three AP champs." In Dota 2 I can learn as many champs as I want

More balanced/less meta. There's still a meta in Dota 2 but you only see it at the highest levels of play. I once saw a guy pick Bounty Hunter and spend the entire laning phase ****ing with their Lycan jungler. Warding camps so they wouldn't spawn, stealing last hits, by 15 minutes their Lycan was basically a creep. If you did that in lol your own team would report you before the minions spawned. Less meta and more balanced also means you don't end up with League of Ezreal/Graves/Corki and ****.

Cooler heroes. Seriously. League's best examples of creative champ design are outshone by Dota's moderately interesting champs. Rubick, Invoker, Meepo, Lone Druid, you'd never see **** like that in League.

I still have a soft spot for League so I don't hate it like some people, but Dota's a better game in a lot of very important ways.