@Lyte, I'd enjoy the game more if your standards for behavior were relaxed a bit.

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Futurecat

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Oh and a further point on incentives... imagine if, when you sit down to do Tribunal, there is a big disclaimer next to the punish button that says:

"Please do not click punish unless you feel this person's behavior is bad enough to warrant them getting banned from the game. Put yourself in their shoes and ask if you would expect to be banned for that kind of behavior. Furthermore, if you click 'punish' too often on cases that don't deserve it, you will lose your privileges to participate in Tribunal."

Do you think that might help restore sanity to the judging process, just a little bit?

Riot can do a LOT to guide the community toward reasonable expectations of player behavior, instead of this walk-on-eggshells, oversensitive paranoia their implementation of Tribunal has created.

We are (mostly) adults. We can take a little bit of frustration and anger. Save the bans for truly abusive cases.


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powda

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurecat View Post
All the Tribunal zealots seem a bit extreme to me.

...

Am I alone?
You're not alone, but Riot is too busy cashing in on a game that is more-and-more being tailored for the Asian eSports crowds than it is for the average MOBA player.

Riot is trying to run a daycare while letting the kids parent each other. Glaring mistakes in the Tribunal have been pointed out - numerously - over the last couple years but Riot is content to NOT devote any time or attention to maintaining their perceived Utopia of rainbows and unicorns and allow things to be as they are, or allow them to actually get worse.

The genre is toxic and allowing toxic players to dictate and enforce the rules doesn't help the situation.


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Rignite

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurecat View Post
All the Tribunal zealots seem a bit extreme to me.

I'm an adult. I can handle it when someone gets baited by trolls and loses their cool. Sure, I don't like the negativity and rage that happens in these cases, but I understand it. I don't think they need to be banned. (But by all means, ban the baiters/trolls).

Someone does something stupid and gets called on it by a frustrated teammate? Yeah I don't like it when it happens to me but I get it. I understand why they'd be frustrated. I'm a big boy. I can handle someone calling me on my mistakes.

See where I'm going with this?

Today it feels like if you call someone a "jerk" or a "moron", even in the context of being verbally abused by them, or if you have a bad lane and go 0/4, you get a million "OMG YOU VIOLATED THE SUMMONERS CODE PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH" votes. I understand the rules of the game, and I can modify my behavior to toe the line. But I'd enjoy the game more if I wasn't constantly feeling like the slightest misstep will land me in tribunal.

You're the leader here. You set the tone. And right now, you've created a culture of paranoia, suspicion, "rules lawyering," and zealotry. I'd have more fun if things were a little more mature, if people could be expected to have a slightly thicker skin around here.

Am I alone?
Perma-suspension for http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5934381/#nogo

Permanent. For that. Yeah....

Oh still no option to just remove chat from the game. Maybe I should just play my account on a server with a language I don't speak so it wouldn't matter anyways...


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Rignite

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysUsesAnivia View Post
There are many examples of people who didn't say a single thing in chat, played badly, and were reported and banned.
Not using chat at all shouldn't be representative of someone who doesn't deserve to get into Tribunal, this is a team game, coordination and communication should be considered a must at times.

Who am I kidding, we all know the best way to not end up in Tribunal is never use that chat box.


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Futurecat

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Yeah I know how you feel. I've never been banned, but from your card it basically looks like you got banned for having a heated discussion about how the game was going. Sure you probably crossed the line a bit in case 2, but cases 1 and 3 would have been *more* than enough to get a "punish" vote from Tribunal.

Isn't it a bit sad that we've reached a point where players actively want the option to completely disable team chat, in a team game, because *any* kind of discussion that veers even slightly negative can and often does result in /report -> /puinish -> /ban?


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Sereg Anfaug

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

No, I don't see the point. If you feel the Tribunal is unfair, do something about it. Participate. You can come cry on the forums about how all the Tribunal judges are too strict, or you can join the Tribunal judges and moderate their decisions with your own more lenient judgments. Get your friends who feel the same way to do so as well. Make an actual change.

As for your post at the top of the page:

"Please do not click Pardon unless you feel this person's behavior is benign enough to warrant them not recieving so much as a warning. Put yourself in the shoes of the people who have to play with them, and ask if you would expect to be required to tolerate that kind of behavior when it's directed at you. Furthermore, if you click 'Pardon' too often on cases that don't deserve it, you will lose your privileges to participate in Tribunal."

It goes both ways. Sure, I've seen cases that I've voted Pardon on get Punished, but I also see the opposite happening, with similar frequency.


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Futurecat

Senior Member

11-14-2012

I'm not saying you're wrong to urge more people to participate, but I don't see how that point invalidates the idea of coming to the forums and asking Riot to seriously consider the ways they can incentivize people toward more sane behavior.

You implored me to do something; I am. I'm posting here, hoping to get Riot's attention and turn them on to a real problem.


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Rignite

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurecat View Post
Yeah I know how you feel. I've never been banned, but from your card it basically looks like you got banned for having a heated discussion about how the game was going. Sure you probably crossed the line a bit in case 2, but cases 1 and 3 would have been *more* than enough to get a "punish" vote from Tribunal.

Isn't it a bit sad that we've reached a point where players actively want the option to completely disable team chat, in a team game, because *any* kind of discussion that veers even slightly negative can and often does result in /report -> /puinish -> /ban?
The worst part in game 2 is how you can't see the long winded pre-game chat I have with Malphite where I'm being nice and trying to address my concerns about what he's going to do. He as well has a long winded conversation about how I need to not worry and so forth.

My anger in game 2 wasn't at his screw ups. It was moreso at the fact that he told me not to worry about a lot of things I very quickly had to worry about. If he had been more open from the start and actually listened to the concerns I brought up before they even happened, I wouldn't have bit his head off. Heck, I tried to be constructive in the first place at champion select, telling him teleport might not be best and Malphite isn't a great support. I got a whole lot of "Don't worry", "I know what I'm doing", "Chill". "Ward right away for early gank too Mal" in pregame at one point, with an "Of course" in reply. That of course turned into them ganking us multiple times right away because he HAD no wards, of course.

More importantly, I'm not going to act like I was in the right for that second game. But those other two games, I have no idea what to say about those.


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Sereg Anfaug

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

I feel their current incentive is the best they can offer - vote accurately, or be identified as a poor judge and given less weight to your future judgments. The errors I see in the Tribunal go both ways, so incentivizing more Pardons(or more Punishes) is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Just to expand upon my last post, I cite this case: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5936216/#nogo

Here we have a player reported over 5 different games, spamming nonsense, directing foul language at other players(as opposed to using it without an object), giving away teammates' positions in all chat, and even ragequitting a game.

Yet because he's not as toxic as most players who come before the Tribunal, or perhaps because he only recieved a single report in each game, he recieved a Pardon. Surely this player should have at least recieved a warning, so he could realize his behavior was unacceptable and attempt to reform it? Or, failing that, establish a Tribunal history as a disruptive player? But no... he gets off completely free, and will continue to abuse his teammates, spam, and ragequit future matches with no idea that any of that isn't acceptable.

And no, I'm not advocating the opposite of what you are; that is, fewer Pardons. I'm simply pointing out that the Tribunal has flaws in both directions. It is not too strict, or too lenient - it's simply inconsistent. Incentivizing a certain outcome is going to make it even less consistent - or perhaps, more consistent, but less accurate, and less reflective of the actual will of the community. Rather, it will now reflect the pre-conceived judgments of incentivized judges.


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N0TxSMURFING

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
No, I don't see the point. If you feel the Tribunal is unfair, do something about it. Participate. You can come cry on the forums about how all the Tribunal judges are too strict, or you can join the Tribunal judges and moderate their decisions with your own more lenient judgments. Get your friends who feel the same way to do so as well. Make an actual change.

As for your post at the top of the page:

"Please do not click Pardon unless you feel this person's behavior is benign enough to warrant them not recieving so much as a warning. Put yourself in the shoes of the people who have to play with them, and ask if you would expect to be required to tolerate that kind of behavior when it's directed at you. Furthermore, if you click 'Pardon' too often on cases that don't deserve it, you will lose your privileges to participate in Tribunal."

It goes both ways. Sure, I've seen cases that I've voted Pardon on get Punished, but I also see the opposite happening, with similar frequency.
You don't need a psychology degree to see how the bias in any of these statements will affect decisions. I don't know what it should say, but the standard given by riot of "if you don't like this person punish him" obviously is going to bias tribunal voters to make them vote punish more often, since it subconciously denotes punish as the safter option in the users mind.