The point of draft picks

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Mageinta Warrior

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingSnafu View Post
a Law is just a theory that we cant find any flaws in yet. As science improves flaws may or may not be found making what used to be a law again a theory. To say for a fact a Law will never change we would have to know everything there is to know. Which is impossible
No, you're confusing laws with theories. Laws are descriptions of what we observe in nature and are always true under the circumstances stated; for example Kepler's LAWS of planetary motion. Theories explain what's happening. No one is going to deny that the period of a planet squared is proportional to the semi-major axis cubed. Someone might try to contest WHY that is true and THAT falls under the theory of gravity.


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KingSnafu

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
No, you're confusing laws with theories. Laws are descriptions of what we observe in nature and are always true under the circumstances stated; for example Kepler's LAWS of planetary motion. Theories explain what's happening. No one is going to deny that the period of a planet squared is proportional to the semi-major axis cubed. Someone might try to contest WHY that is true and THAT falls under the theory of gravity.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technol...s-think-155423

Proof that scientific laws can be disproven. A law is simply a flawless theory (until we find one)

Also none of this has anything to do with what the correct way to pick chars in draft is


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Best Furry NA

Member

11-13-2012

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Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Counter picks don't mean as much as you think they do.
For the most part; I saw your % difference and that was intriguing.

Though there's a difference between counters and hard counters. Usually it's the first though.


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anAmishLady

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Counter picks don't mean as much as you think they do.
You're right only in the case of less experienced players who do not know many champions well. In that case, sticking with a favorite or regular champ makes sense.

As we get better, we can pick 3-4 champions of varying play styles, become good enough with them to call them "mains," and counterpick your opponents to set ourselves up with inherent lane advantage.

If one's repertoire is not sufficiently diverse, then I suggest working on that first.


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DarthWhore

Senior Member

11-14-2012

logically the OP is correct. but the counterpick scenario is best for pro games.

coz normal players know very few champs and they may suck badly with the counterpick champ.

also what amuses me is as the champ pick lobby is up everyone shouts their role and since i always say "il fill whats left" and never call a role i get stuck with support 90% of time. but then when its time for me to pick a champ i must pick the champ they want. this is hilarious since they are stubborn in champ select and play what they want and want others to change.

:P


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mnun

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Counter picks don't mean as much as you think they do.
I don't ban Morgana, people rage. Enemy team first picks morg, I first pick talon, gets honored for going 12/2 as Talon mid..

Counter picking is awesome when done right


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-14-2012

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Originally Posted by mnun View Post
I don't ban Morgana, people rage. Enemy team first picks morg, I first pick talon, gets honored for going 12/2 as Talon mid..

Counter picking is awesome when done right
I'm not saying that counter-picking doesn't exist.

If you know, for example, that Morgana is the most popular mid pick at your Elo, and you also know that Talon is the hardest counter to Morgana, and you set out to practice Talon all day and all night until you've perfected Talon so that your ability to Talon is equal or better than the ability of any Morgana player you'd encounter at your Elo, then you've got a counter pick.

But this isn't really relevant to the OP's idea, because all that matters for your idea to work is for the enemy to have already picked Morgana. You can't control the enemy team's pick order--only your own.


So on this end, counter picks CAN mean something. I didn't say they're completely irrelevant.


But let's say you're not on the enemy team, and I pick Morgana as my mid. If Morgana is my main, and the enemy mid takes Talon, and only takes Talon because he's heard Talon is a good counter, when in reality, the enemy mid isn't that great with Talon, then I'll end up crushing that Talon in lane because I'm playing on a champ that I have a hundred plus games played, while he's playing Talon for maybe the tenth time?

Meanwhile, if that player instead picks a champ that he's really good with, he'll do significantly better. Even if the champ he's picking isn't a hard counter (or soft counter) to Morgana. Heck, even if Morgana is a counter to his pick, if he's picking his main, he'll do significantly better against my main than he would by picking a counter-pick to my main that he is unfamiliar with.


And to the OP, just because I'm using "if" in my logic, doesn't mean I'm throwing out some hypothetical, never-will-happen, what-if scenarios. I'm using if-then statements to explain the options that someone has when considering counter-picking me.

The stats don't lie. The HARDEST counter-picks in League only have about a 7% better win rate against the champion in question compared to that champion's normal win-rate.

What this means is, take Jax, for example. Jax has about a 51% win rate. Shen is considered one of the best counters to Jax. Against teams that contain a Shen, Jax still manages nearly a 47% win-rate.

Now, one is above 50% and one is below 50%, so there's a least some significance there, but it's only a drop of about 4% here. That means if my personal win rate with Jax is somewhere in the neighborhood of 70%, then I would expect my win rate as Jax against teams that contain Shen to be at least 65%.

If Jax were my main, and I was only facing players who main Shen, it might be lower than 65%. But the problem is, a large percentage of the time that I take Jax, the enemy team might counter-pick Shen just because the enemy solotop knows that Shen is supposedly a Jax counter. Well if Shen is not his main, he is not as comfortable with his champion as I am with my champion. So my win-rate against Shen for players who don't main Shen is likely to be even higher than my overall win rate as Jax.


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Sam Is Whoa

Senior Member

11-14-2012

your list of how the pick "is supposed to go". Is not good. What if first pick on the opposite side is brand. You as first pick are not allowed to chose a mid champ to counter? Its ridiculous reasoning. I agree counter picking is good but only if your good with that champ. It means nothing to chose caitlyn or sivir against graves if you suck with those champs. It means nothing to pick Rumble against malphite if you cant play him well. So get the tampon out of your ass and take whats given to you. If your last pick you fill the last spot, if your first pick you chose what you want. Nice and easy.


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KingSnafu

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Is Whoa View Post
your list of how the pick "is supposed to go". Is not good. What if first pick on the opposite side is brand. You as first pick are not allowed to chose a mid champ to counter? Its ridiculous reasoning. I agree counter picking is good but only if your good with that champ. It means nothing to chose caitlyn or sivir against graves if you suck with those champs. It means nothing to pick Rumble against malphite if you cant play him well. So get the tampon out of your ass and take whats given to you. If your last pick you fill the last spot, if your first pick you chose what you want. Nice and easy.


gotta love blatant statements with no reasoning really makes you sound credible. But to answer your questions if there first pick goes brand but there jungles goes amunu, you can then make an informed decision that i need a high mobility char such as kassadin to help me get away from amunus ult and skills shots as well as brands, being why mid is last as it needs to have the most informed decision.

Also this is for ranked, and if you not at least competent in 2-3 chars of every role you should still be practicing in draft or normals to get to where you are competent with 2-3 chars of every role(at the very least) and as it is not a cookie cutter X counter Y and Y only every character has a few counters giving you choices as to what char you want to use to counter. http://championselect.net/ give that site a browse theres a reason theres not just 1 character under who there weak and strong against. If you see Udyr is countered by trundle but dont like trundle then go down the list and say hmm but i do like renekton and youve got your counter. or if you see they have Lee jungling and say a low mobility char like oriana at mid you can go further down the list and say i can get nocturne who can easily gank there mid and counter jungle there jungle.

This is for ranked and ranked should be played when your experienced at the game not when you can only play 3-4 characters and thats it


To PogoPogoPogoPogo: you just keep reiterating yourself in long winded posts. You also seem to think every character only has 1 counter or you are just trying to imply that all LoL players are unintelligent and just play whoever they see the pros play and/or do whatever there told in character select.If you see jax is countered by malphite but suck at malphite then guess what you can do? go to http://www.championselect.net/champ/Jax scroll down the list and say hmm i suck at malphite but im good with yorrick so you pick yorrick. I try and assume people can problem solve and reason through things and come to good decisions whereas your trying to impose stupidity.


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Vonstahl

Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
They mean a lot more than you think they do. If you counterpick mid, you're set to dominate the lane. That means your midgame presence is more powerful than theirs. Same deal with top lane, and if mid/top and dominating, that leaves your jungler to pressure bottom and help it snowball too.
I think you are fogetting about lane synergy, skill, and counter building

While counter picks are always helpful and do "set you up to win the lane" unless the other mid has a jungle with great lane synergy, now I havent played ranked, just with people who have because I am more into playing for the joy then getting a rating based on my relative skill, so I cant think of any off the top of my head (if you know as much as you lead on you should be able to) however I think that lane synergy could undo all that your counter pick does and get 2 people fed (assists give gold too) instead of 1 and now the jungler has stronger ganks for the other lanes lowering the chances of the jungler being bot ready to gank but making the reprcausions for getting that cs a lot worse if he is, also with skill you can often work your way around many situations, I have seen many counter picks fall flat of there faces just because they pick a champ to counter pick

I think you have some good points in that there is a general preference however I think I would like to pick shen first if not banned and he is rarly a support, I may also think of champs who can be in multiple rolls like malph who can jungle, top, mid, and I have seen support. So I think there are many other factors to look at

also whoever said the people under 20 are the problem, I am a few years under 20 and have been in very few cases a problem, I learned the mechanics, comps, strats, items, and champs and am now working on synergys and counters, I think the problem is just the community in general not really a specific demographic exept for those who haven figured the game out, and thats not a problem they just need practice and in many cases to get more mature (something many adults are still working on