Fix Blackfire please

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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
I'm personally of the opinion that Blackfire Torch has no place in this game due to it making many strong champions even stronger, and most balanced champions still balanced. It is a mess of an item, as I'm sure you'll have found today by spectating featured matches where even Malphites, Yoricks, and Urgots are using BFT with success.

Also, what was the point of reducing mana regen on this map? This didn't impact the top set of champions at all, but it did nerf the balanced and underpowered sets. Kha'Zix, Jayce, Diana, Darius, Maokai, Teemo, Lulu, Wukong and Jax are all still manaless champions as far as any competent player is concerned, and manatank Kassadin couldn't care less about regen. On the flipside, Viktor-level/style mages are having even more issues which the new items don't really help. Reducing the map's chalice effect only increased the distance between the OPs and the non-OPs.

Nome, we have a community here that has theorycrafted solutions and mathed out tons of options all the way since the beginning of the year. Feel free to ask us for feedback on ideas, because we have a lot of constructive discussion to give, and some of the high EU players are also here on the NA forums to centralize communication.
The problem is that Non AP's Can use it, not the item itself. As an item is is comparable to Ghostblade both in stats and functionality but you are right in that it is strong on champions it is not meant for. The problem is when AD casters and tanks use it, you already listed one of the main offenders - Urgot.

A simple fix would be to give the Blackfire Torch DoT AP Scaling, so you'd need around 200 ap to get the damage it does now - Example 1% per tick per 100ap. Better on ap casters, worse/useless on ad's, tanks, etc. I'd also consider lowering the max charges from 25 to around 15.


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FOODFOOD

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Overall, I'm not too concerned about the immediate impact these changes have on the competitive/top-level Dominion community. You guys will adapt quickly, point out obvious issues, etc. I'm more concerned about shifting paradigms for the remainder of the 99% of Dominion players, and maybe even non-Dominion players who are looking to get a taste of "dat BFT imba".

I like to balance by hitting highs and lows first, then whittling it down closer. Inching only in one direction actually tends to be more disastrous, believe it or not. If BFT proves to be too strong (yes, it probably is), then it'll be changed one way or another. Ultimately, for the health of the map, I believe this is the way to go.
Does it feel to anyone else like we're being punished for being high-elo? It's like Riot doesn't WANT there to be a competitive scene in Dominion...


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Nome is saying we'll adapt, not that he doesn't care about us. He wants to make people play Dominion better on lower echelons, and then after they adapt they'll iterate, and things will get better for everyone.

He doesn't say he doesn't care for us, but that we're big boys and we'll manage.


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FOODFOOD

Senior Member

11-14-2012

I guess that's true. I was just a bit turned off by what he said, considering it's the high-elo people that are advocating for change - not so much low-elo, who have been adapting all along without really saying much. I guess that's what happens, though, when the vocal majority is a pretty small group.


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Nyx87

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

I strangely agree with RiotNome's way of balancing, even though it may seem a bit heavy handed. As a Music Educator I handle readjusting student posture very similarly. If, say, their wrist is out of place, I adjust the arm as a whole, because if i just adjust the wrist alone, it might cause issues in the fingers or elbow or even the back. So he is looking at the broader aspects of Dominion.

It's also interesting that in one fell swoop he made Mages extremely dominant in a bruiser dominant map. What does that mean? It means that true balance between the classes is possible, and for that I am excited. Now we just need to endure some broken items occasionally. Things may be out of wack for a bit, but WE WILL ENDURE!


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

11-14-2012

TRINITY, MY NAME lS BLACKFIRE

NO STATS WASTED

NO COMMERClALS

NO MERCY


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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
It's also interesting that in one fell swoop he made Mages extremely dominant in a bruiser dominant map. What does that mean? It means that true balance between the classes is possible, and for that I am excited. Now we just need to endure some broken items occasionally. Things may be out of wack for a bit, but WE WILL ENDURE!
The characters that best use BFT are basically just bruisers that buy AP items. :/


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konfetarius

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
As much as any Dominion player doesn't want to admit it, the reason why so much is skewed on this map is because of the passive gold gain and nothing else. We can't, and should not, change this though because the passive gold gain is what makes Dominion, Dominion. What should be targetted instead is both the passive penetration and making replacement defensive items that are more clutch and less globally effective. It's one thing to get a Frozen Heart against a balanced team, but it's another to get Frozen Heart against a team with 4 mages simply because it's just so darn good, and the armor is useful anyways due to minions/turrets/lichbane/autoattacks.
O.K., as much as I hate defending RiotNome on this, we already know that defensive stats balance is getting changed anyway in Season 3.

There isn't much point in requesting replacements for the OP defensive items until we see the actual armor/magicres nerfs in Season 3.


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Ragias

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronicleX View Post
The problem is that Non AP's Can use it, not the item itself. As an item is is comparable to Ghostblade both in stats and functionality but you are right in that it is strong on champions it is not meant for. The problem is when AD casters and tanks use it, you already listed one of the main offenders - Urgot.

A simple fix would be to give the Blackfire Torch DoT AP Scaling, so you'd need around 200 ap to get the damage it does now - Example 1% per tick per 100ap. Better on ap casters, worse/useless on ad's, tanks, etc. I'd also consider lowering the max charges from 25 to around 15.
I would be concerned if issues similar to DFG didn't arise where with the items AP scaling becomes exponential. I believe Xyph was talking about it in his thread on the new Tiamat. Essentially since the %HP scales with AP as you get more AP you need exponentially less and less spells to kill someone as opposed to linearly.

Just talking about it makes me think of all the troubles that would arise if they ever gave a similar ability AD scaling. (I don't think they would as AD already has multiplicative scaling.)


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Infirc

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostradamusss View Post
no old blacktorch was not too powerfull, it was ok. it had 20 less ap, no mpen, no CD, half damage from aoe than current blacktorch

Current blacktorch is completly out of control. I totally agree with the op, this item just killed dominion and tt for me. No point playing these mode anymore until riot fix it.

people rush it, although it's cleary a lategame item (counter hp stacking).

And it's just the begining,the 20magic pen with 50%pen is only "10flat magic pen". i can't imagine how absurdly op this item will be at season 3 when the 20 magic pen will apply after %pen.

this item clearly deserve the most op item from lol history award.
"hen you prefer being facestomped by an Olaf or Darius player in TT sitting on their keyboards while moving their hips to the rythm of the popular latin song "La macarena"?

Or being facestomped on ANY map by a Jayce player letting his cat walk on his keyboard?

Mages already had a hard time on those modes before but anything that kills JAycce, jax, Olaf, or Darius... OMG wtf imba?!!, what's next,? "if you survive Kha'zix burst youa re probably Op"?


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