Should shields really be factoring in the users resistances?

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General Quackers

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddyWasTaken View Post
late game adc with ie, pd, and lw melts anyone unless ur a tank who built full armor, in which case the ap carry would melt u instantly

a 280 or 250 damage shield is nothing in a late game teamfight. r u suggesting 280 extra hp of true damage is enough to tank 5 ppl? u can get hit by 5 random auto atks from champs who built no ad items (base ad around 100 and u'd lose ur shield. sounds balanced?

plz reconsider ur post

edit: nvm, it's even worse than i though

base ad for many mages hits around 100 ad at lv 18. get hit by 3 autos and ur shield is gone
The problem with this logic is it assumes that the shield is the only thing allowing a tank to tank when in reality, it's just one tool in their kit (if they have one). Once the shield is popped, the tank's resistances will be calculated normally, so I fail to see how this ruins tanks with shields.

For you to be correct, shields would have to be the deciding factor in whether or not a tank lives or dies even more so than the tank's build. It's not a sound argument.


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BuddyWasTaken

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Duck View Post
The problem with this logic is it assumes that the shield is the only thing allowing a tank to tank when in reality, it's just one tool in their kit (if they have one). Once the shield is popped, the tank's resistances will be calculated normally, so I fail to see how this ruins tanks with shields.

For you to be correct, shields would have to be the deciding factor in whether or not a tank lives or dies even more so than the tank's build. It's not a sound argument.
from what ur suggesting, shields will become worthless

i mean, if i'm playing naut or shen, screw leveling up my shield. it'll only be there for 3 auto atks against enemies who built no ad items. heck, an adc will one shot my shield.

as for late game, i feel horrible

i have this useless skill that costs energy/mana that doesn't do anything useful for me.



also, funny thing about shen's ult if u do this

it's be the worse ultimate in the game, lol, shen won't be viable in any level of play
3 second channel for a 850 true damage hp shield with a 2 min 30 sec cooldown, sounds fun

especially since the shield will pop from 8 auto atks from mages or supports (8 won't be hard to do in 3 seconds if u have multiple ppl), 2 if it's from an adc, or 2 random spells

definitely balanced...


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General Quackers

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddyWasTaken View Post
from what ur suggesting, shields will become worthless

i mean, if i'm playing naut or shen, screw leveling up my shield. it'll only be there for 3 auto atks against enemies who built no ad items. heck, an adc will one shot my shield.

as for late game, i feel horrible

i have this useless skill that costs energy/mana that doesn't do anything useful for me.



also, funny thing about shen's ult if u do this

it's be the worse ultimate in the game, lol, shen won't be viable in any level of play
3 second channel for a 850 true damage hp shield with a 2 min 30 sec cooldown, sounds fun

especially since the shield will pop from 8 auto atks from mages or supports (8 won't be hard to do in 3 seconds if u have multiple ppl), 2 if it's from an adc, or 2 random spells

definitely balanced...
Assuming Shen only uses his ult on tanks. His ult's shield doesn't factor in Shen's resistances, it factors in his target's resistances. Squishy saving would be virtually unchanged and tanky champs will survive the focus.

As for any shield in the late game, they get wiped out in a couple shots anyway. You're greatly exaggerating the effects this change would have on the late game.


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DarkChibiman

Senior Member

11-14-2012

You know, I still agree with OP - but I also think shields themselves are pretty well-balanced.

I'd like to have what he's suggesting implemented, but only alongside buffs to shields' shielding amount.

I just think it's weird that Shield A on a tank is far more effective than Shield A on a squishy. It would also be helpful to know exactly how much damage a shield can take before breaking.


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Pyrodruid

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Shields will normally only be up for a short time, you can either burst them down or wait them out, for your example, it's not simply "A 300 shield will nullify X damage", it's "A shield will nullify X damage or change target priority for 5 seconds". Leave even a 1000hp shield 100% negated by just a few seconds, this choice is a big impact in the balance I feel.

Shields take true damage? On average they now shield for half effective damage. A 50% nerf on just about anyone's ability will considerably cripple that champs viability, more so when it's often a core ability of a champ. As I'm assuming you dont' play many supports let me try to show it from our point of view, consider whatever you main? Now consider how much it would hurt if that character's core ability was halved, damage, speed, cc, range, whatever the main focus of that ability is, halve it.


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BuddyWasTaken

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Duck View Post
Assuming Shen only uses his ult on tanks. His ult's shield doesn't factor in Shen's resistances, it factors in his target's resistances. Squishy saving would be virtually unchanged and tanky champs will survive the focus.

As for any shield in the late game, they get wiped out in a couple shots anyway. You're greatly exaggerating the effects this change would have on the late game.
no, ur very wrong on that

squishy saving would change a lot

even a squishy will have AT LEAST 80-90 armor, or 70 mr late game (base resistances), which even though it doesn't seem like much, does help a lot

80 armor means u take 44% less damage from autos without armor pen

that's basically half damage, meaning it takes 2 autos to do the same damage as 1 true damage auto atk

late game adcs will have around 2 atk speed, which means 2 autos every second

shen ult on squishy (850 shield) means around 2-3 autos of true damage from a late game adc, which would take 1.5 seconds

with the resistances, it'll take 2x as long to do the damage, meaning 3 seconds, which is perfect for shen since he'll show up right when his shield dies


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General Quackers

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddyWasTaken View Post
no, ur very wrong on that

squishy saving would change a lot

even a squishy will have AT LEAST 80-90 armor, or 70 mr late game (base resistances), which even though it doesn't seem like much, does help a lot

80 armor means u take 44% less damage from autos without armor pen

that's basically half damage, meaning it takes 2 autos to do the same damage as 1 true damage auto atk

late game adcs will have around 2 atk speed, which means 2 autos every second

shen ult on squishy (850 shield) means around 2-3 autos of true damage from a late game adc, which would take 1.5 seconds

with the resistances, it'll take 2x as long to do the damage, meaning 3 seconds, which is perfect for shen since he'll show up right when his shield dies
No. When you add realistic context to those examples, not much changes. If a squishy champ gets caught, Shen can't save them with his shield. If a squishy champ needs a peel, Shen can save them.


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Tempestphile

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Whats the point of a shield, if an ADC can 1 shot it down?


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BuddyWasTaken

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Duck View Post
No. When you add realistic context to those examples, not much changes. If a squishy champ gets caught, Shen can't save them with his shield. If a squishy champ needs a peel, Shen can save them.
BASE RESISTANCES

why can't u just do the math urself....


think about it

base resistances will get u around 50% mitigation without armor or magic pen

50% MITIGATION IS A LOT, ESPECIALLY IF UR SQUISHY

in a team fight, if ur a squishy and ur getting shielded for 2x more damage because ur shields factored in base resistances, then ur living 2x longer

that's a lot of survivability


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Pyrodruid

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkChibiman View Post
I just think it's weird that Shield A on a tank is far more effective than Shield A on a squishy. It would also be helpful to know exactly how much damage a shield can take before breaking.
A shield on a tank will block more base damage, true, but it will often be more effective overall on your squishy. Consider it in dps terms, if your tank does 100dps and takes 50% the damage of the squishy (therefore last twice a long), while your squishy does 300dps, your tank shield last for 2 seconds saving 200 damage output, while the squishy shield only lasts for 1 seconds saving 300 output. Also a tank is more likely to have shield left at the end of the duration, if their is 100 shield left at the end, that 100 waisted.

As for it being helpful to know how much damage a shield can take, it's easier for the shielded player to know "I loose 6 pips of health 1v1ing this person normally, the shield is 3 pips large, I should be taking 3 pips damage after shield", personally even on the offensive I look at how many pips the opponent takes in damage the the exact HP values (unless it's very close), so I find consistency between HP and shield much easier to understand.