All those threads talking about role-queuing.

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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Bumping this, because the past day or so has brought a whole slew of new people who think they've got an original idea.


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KnightxSScarlett

Senior Member

11-12-2012

The main problem is people think that the lanes are the meta. The lanes are a small aspect of the meta and switching the lanes is NOT a new meta. Double jungle, ranged AD top/bot with an AP mid is a change in the meta. AD/support mid, AP top, bruiser bot is not a new meta.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
The main problem is people think that the lanes are the meta. The lanes are a small aspect of the meta and switching the lanes is NOT a new meta. Double jungle, ranged AD top/bot with an AP mid is a change in the meta. AD/support mid, AP top, bruiser bot is not a new meta.
Even bruiser/support bot, ADC top, AP mid, jungle is just barely a "meta" change.


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TvorRyn

Junior Member

11-13-2012

It seems PogoPogo is against the idea for a few reasons, but it's not exactly clear to me what they are. Would the idea's detractors be willing to distill their objections to the idea so that they can be discussed and possibly rebutted? Then we can eventually agree on which items for discussion have been settled and which are still points of contention.


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adc

Member

11-13-2012

Basically, Riot would be saying "This is how the game is meant to be played." rather than "You guys figure out how you would like to play it, and we'll give you a game."


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KnightxSScarlett

Senior Member

11-13-2012

The idea has been distilled. Several times.

1. People can queue for a role and not play their role (the way their teammates want them to, such as me playing bruiser Sona top)
2. It enforces a meta <----- THIS IS VERY BAD
2b. What if you're playing a role that isn't part of the meta?
3. It makes queue timers longer

In the end, this idea would make the game stagnate, which is not good.


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TvorRyn

Junior Member

11-13-2012

The most important thing I have to say is that role queues do not have to and should not replace solo ranked and normal queue. They can exist side by side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
1. People can queue for a role and not play their role (the way their teammates want them to, such as me playing bruiser Sona top)
There are two issues here: People who refuse to play the role they queued for, i.e. trolls. And those who play strange things that still work.

People who attempt to troll by not playing the role at all (queueing as support, picking taric and playing in the mid lane) can be reported by players with a new option available when the team is made from the role queue. Not playing/picking according to assigned role.

For those who want to do strange things, almost no one wants to be on your team when you do that. So go do it in solo-queue, which would still exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
2. It enforces a meta <----- THIS IS VERY BAD
I'm not so sure it is a bad thing. Players who want to play the meta will queue in role queues and players who want to break the meta can queue in solo-queue or with people they know as a team.

Experimentation can still happen, and if the meta shifts, the queue system can be designed to still work. I'll explain how if you like.
Most people want to play the meta. The meta is what people think works. And by trying an off the wall strategy by your self or without your teammates understanding or desiring to do so, you are in effect trolling. If you win, people won't care and won't report. You do it and lose enough, it will get reported. Why? Because you are in effect trolling people. They want to play the meta and you will not let them, and you are losing them games.

In any case, the meta only really changes when professional teams at a tournament try something interesting that works and it becomes the new meta. If you want to create the new meta, experiment in solo queue or with your friends or teammates. Let people play what they know is currently working, with other people who feel the same way. What they all feel is currently working may change, but that is ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
2b. What if you're playing a role that isn't part of the meta?
If you role-queued you would be annoying the teammates you are randomly assigned. Go to solo-queue and explain why you want to do it, to them. They would have already decided not to play the meta and would be more forgiving. Or play with people you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
3. It makes queue timers longer
Queue times could get longer for those in role queues than for those in solo-queue or compared to solo queue times right now, but do we really care if that is the case?

I think that what we should be maximizing is happiness or enjoyment. It seems that some people would prefer to get a certain role, and would be happier to spend some extra waiting in the queue to get that role. I think others would prefer fewer games with trolls, afkers, and 20 or 40 minute drawn out losses caused by bad team comps.

Some people opportunistically troll when they cannot get their preferred role, but if they role queued, they would get this and there would be fewer trolls in games. People could still intend to troll, but they would be more obvious come tribunal time.

Some people dodge when they see a "bad" team comp, but more likely one that doesn't fit the meta. If these dodgers can go to role queues to play with other people who want to play the meta, people in solo queue would have less wasted time on average.

So because people who want to take advantage of role queueing will be on average happier (fewer trolls and don't have to dodge to get a team comp that fits the meta) they will be better off.
People who continue to solo queue won't have to deal with the dodgers who would switch to role queue, but will still have to deal with opportunistic trolls. They will also be better off in some ways.


With two queues competing for access to the same types of games (ranked or normal queue) it would be easy to see if people preferred to pick a role and wait longer or gamble that they can get their role in solo queue without someone trolling. The only downside to implementing role queues in addition to solo queue is that perhaps because of role imbalance, people would give up on role queues. It seems to me to be more likely that the players who really like to play the under-preferred roles would be incentivized to move to role queue to have shorter queue times to play the role the love best, and some people might be willing to play those same roles in order to get in a game faster. This would help to balance the wait times.

Even if wait times in the queue are really long, as long as people aren't leaving the queue, they are choosing to wait. So the longer wait times wouldn't actually be an issue. Those who role queue would prefer the longer wait time for the benefits it provides for them. And since role queue teams can play solo queue teams, wait times in general can still be relatively short.

If ranked queues do fall out of favor, (although I think they will stabilize with some proportion of players choosing it), some effort will have been wasted. However, if almost everyone prefers role queue, and everyone leaves solo queue, would the effort put in to make solo queue have also have been "wasted"?

A Popular Objection not stated by Mageinta Warrior
A fourth objection some seem to have is that you should be able to play all the roles in order to play ranked, and that this is a bad idea because you could always role queue excluding certain roles. I think that it is fine to have different elos for each role and be much better at some roles than others. I'd like to hear some good arguments for why this is unacceptable and should prevent a role queue from being setup.


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KnightxSScarlett

Senior Member

11-14-2012

1. So you're suggesting that adding report function to champ select which means you now have to differentiate between my Sona Bruiser top being troll or legit? highly suspicious.

2. Case sent to Tribunal with experimentation usually result in a pardon because the person isn't breaking the summoner's code. You can report me for my Bruiser Sona but I am 100% confident I won't get banned because I'm doing nothing wrong.

3. Ranked is not about playing the meta. You should not be forced to play the meta in ranked. If Riot does enforce a meta in solo queue ranked, it will severely hurt the game. But Riot keeps pandering to the whiny people and this game can easily go downhill if it keeps happening. But I digress. No one should be able to force you to play the meta than you should be able to force someone to play by the not-meta. Ranked should be more about teamwork. This idea doesn't promote teamwork as much as the current solo queue does.


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TvorRyn

Junior Member

11-14-2012

Once again, role queues are separate from solo queue. If you don't want to play the meta in ranked, play solo queue. For those who would like to play the meta, they can play in role queue.

Yes, the game is about teamwork. The current meta is a shortcut to teamwork. Everyone understands what the roles are supposed to do and what their part is in the team. People who want to do non meta things are disrupting what teamwork there would be.

The tribunal for role queue would be, do you feel this is playing the role they said they were going to play? The punishment wouldn't be banning the account but temporary suspensions from role queue. If you don't want to use role queue as intended, you would be prevented from using it.


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Alletha

Junior Member

11-15-2012

well maybe a lot of people post about this because they think is a great idea I wouldn't mind it having to wait a little longer instead of having someone not knowing or wanting to play that role and losing a game for you is not fun I think we can all relate to that people not saying anything and at the end saying "ohhh well i can play that role " and ending up costing you the game I think we can agree maybe two different queue's the regular one and a new one with roles that you can pick