Item Preview Dust Sweeping

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bob000

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varxtis View Post
"Madred blood razor is a noob trap"

Oh? So that's why Its secretly cost efficient. By the time one builds a madred bloodrazor, the enemy has at least 2k hp. so that is 80 magic damage right there.


your getting 120 damage from the whole thing (80 magic and 40 ad)


415 x 12 = 4830 . Now you also get the attack speed which is 40 percent, thats around 1000. Then you have armor thats around 400. 4830 + 1000 + 400 = 6230

6230 - 3800 = 2430 cost efficiency.

(Now you may argue by saying the enemy will have Mr so the magic damage on madreds is lower than 4 percent, but likewise AD damage gets lowered by Armor, so the point still remain)

Anyone who can do math can tell that madreds is a very cost efficient item, even vs non tanks. I'm sad to see Madred bloodrazor leaving, but to say that it was a noob trap is tremendously false, and seems like a weak reason to get rid of it..

-P.S madreds is a very underrated item, and many are very misinformed of its potential-
The flaw in your reasoning is that magic damage isn't worth the 41 gold that a point of ad is. It doesn't scale with crit, lifesteal or ability ratios.


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TinyShrimpFan

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The problem with MBR is that it looks like a counter-item to tanks - but in all actuality, IE + PD is a far far better counter to tanks than MBR's % maximum health damage ever will.

Why is this true?

This is due to the fact that if you look at an end-game build for say.. Fortune, you might get to 1900 health. Why if you look at an end-game build for say.. Shen, you might see him at 50% more health.

However, the key fault here is that tank/bruisers are defined by resistances - not health. Thus a high health-shredder is actually pretty poor at doing so. While MBR will do more raw damage to Shen than Fortune, the reality of the matter is that, after magic resistance, you'd need like 80% magic penetration to make it deal more actual damage to Shen than Miss Fortune.

Secondly, think about the item's build path. A counter item that sits at 3800 gold isn't really a counter-item. Nor does it help you anywhere along the way up to that counter-item in terms of what you need or want to do.

Thirdly, let's say we buffed MBR, who does this actually benefit? Well, in all actuality, it buffs tanky fighters and lets them kill squishy targets faster. At its core, MBR is a fighter item - not a ranged carry item - and while it being a fighter item *might* be fine - its real sin is that it's a anti-squishy item for bruisers that pretends to be an anti-bruiser item for squishies.

So the "conditional" here is that MBR will never actually do what on-hit proc characters want it to do - be an avenue to help them versus high health men - because MBR is most effective *on* high-health men trying to kill you - which means that it's just not a good 'niche' item. It blatantly does the opposite of what it appears to be for.
Are you seriously removing one of the most fun to play with items for build variety in Ionic spark, just because other people are buying it that it wasn't intended for...?


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The problem with MBR is that it looks like a counter-item to tanks - but in all actuality, IE + PD is a far far better counter to tanks than MBR's % maximum health damage ever will.

Why is this true?

This is due to the fact that if you look at an end-game build for say.. Fortune, you might get to 1900 health. Why if you look at an end-game build for say.. Shen, you might see him at 50% more health.

However, the key fault here is that tank/bruisers are defined by resistances - not health. Thus a high health-shredder is actually pretty poor at doing so. While MBR will do more raw damage to Shen than Fortune, the reality of the matter is that, after magic resistance, you'd need like 80% magic penetration to make it deal more actual damage to Shen than Miss Fortune.

Secondly, think about the item's build path. A counter item that sits at 3800 gold isn't really a counter-item. Nor does it help you anywhere along the way up to that counter-item in terms of what you need or want to do.

Thirdly, let's say we buffed MBR, who does this actually benefit? Well, in all actuality, it buffs tanky fighters and lets them kill squishy targets faster. At its core, MBR is a fighter item - not a ranged carry item - and while it being a fighter item *might* be fine - its real sin is that it's a anti-squishy item for bruisers that pretends to be an anti-bruiser item for squishies.

So the "conditional" here is that MBR will never actually do what on-hit proc characters want it to do - be an avenue to help them versus high health men - because MBR is most effective *on* high-health men trying to kill you - which means that it's just not a good 'niche' item. It blatantly does the opposite of what it appears to be for.
Why the **** did you create this...monstrosity then?

I'm glad you're taking it away. And giving us something that....hopefully....works against high HP targets.

Hopefully I can use it on Kha'zix.


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Tannkara

Junior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
MtG has the space to use bad cards as part of their learning process? Why? The entire deck construction phase is testing your filtering skill as a player. Learning what cards work well with you and what cards don't work in the context of your 60 cards is something that is done in isolation - without time pressure - and fairly independent of the opponent.

While this is a skill that *can* be used to determine which player is better than the other, a real time game shouldn't test this facet - especially when trial and error has a very real cost to the current game that you're in. It's one of those 'We want you to focus on beating the opponent - not trying to figure out what bad items we put in to try to trick you or teach you a lesson.'
While I agree with you that intentional traps make far more sense in mtg then they do in LoL, I think you aren't addressing one of the fundamental reasons why. The trial and error of playing bad cards in mtg is just as punishing as it is in LoL. However mtg gives you far more immediate obvious feedback then LoL does about what you did that was bad. If I swap out card A for card B it is generally fairly obvious what impact that has. If I swap out item A for item B it is a LOT harder to isolate that variable.

Was the item better? Did I position better? Did I execute my skill combos better? Did my teammates play better? Was I making better decisions about when to engage? Any one of these questions can overwhelm the difference between item A and item B. The realtime nature of the game further increases the difficulty in figuring out what made the difference. In mtg you encounter the noob trap, discover it is a noob trap and move on having gotten the satisfaction of improving as a player. In LoL it is far too easy to encounter a noob trap at the same time you improve one or more of your other skills and you end up receiving feedback that using the trap item actually improved your play.

The fact that LoL has more things going on and that it is all in realtime makes it far harder to realize when you've fallen for a trap, and that is why traps are much worse in LoL then mtg.


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nillthium

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Senior Member

11-10-2012

@xyph - overall (with the pd nerf) will ad carries do more or less dps?
2. are we gona see more build pathes for adc?


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BFIceBrand

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You caught us and our massive conspiracy.

(What motivation would we even have to lie about this??) o.o

MBR is one of the most underestimated Item in the game and one of the most powerful items I have ever used. Why are you trying to cover it up? Is it because you really don't know? Since I have been playing LOL this has become one of my favorite items in the game because of its amazing power to dominate games.

On Champs like LuLu.Temoo.Vayne its really really powerful. Removing this Item from the game is a direct insult on people who carved out amazing strategies since playing LOL with the use of this item.Why are you forcing people to play what you guys @Riot thinks is the best way to play the game.

MBR gave way to many unconventional builds that work and outclass the "meta" so why remove it and why deny the fact they you know about the amazing results that it has(Even I would say its OP).I consider this bullying and really unfair to people who think "outside-the-box"

I mean really why remove and item that really does not affect any other champ in a bad way but give benefits to a lot of champs.(Is this just a cover up for you new jungle changes?) If so why do it at the expense of other people's play style.

I would really like you guys @Riot to explain this to me because it seems really unnecessary and inconsiderate to people with different play styles to the "meta"


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msgerbs

Senior Member

11-10-2012

HoG removed? RIP Support Tanks.


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MultiH

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Member

11-10-2012

What has been done about the snowball Oracle issue?


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Nexttoradio

Senior Member

11-10-2012

This and this is how I feel when I read this.

Yes, I know it's a DOTA2 refrence, but its the same idea.

edit: for the first link, scroll down. Its a little bonus comic.


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TheTreeGod

Junior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiH View Post
What has been done about the snowball Oracle issue?
What snowball Oracle issue? Wards are free now... there will be no oracles snowballing issue when everyone is just replacing their killed wards for free.