Item Preview Dust Sweeping

First Riot Post
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Moiser

Junior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombifiedAngel View Post
No more Madred's Blood Razor....
No more Ionic Spark....
No more Attack Speed on The Black Cleaver....
Why are we losing so much AS here?
Well, no one bought MBR in the first place, and BC was outclassed by LW in almost every way. I say our attack speed alternatives are just fine.


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infernalnite

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Junior Member

11-09-2012

I dont understand why you dont change the way supports work by making a mana less champ. that way it doesnt make every support start with the same thing and get the same items. add more and different GP/10. ex: one that gives move spd or one that has like armor and mr. i dont think all supports need mana. I play a lot of support and I would like some change. Dont want to feel like im playing the same champ every game


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Cup0fTea

Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Think about it that way:
The jungler gets also one cause he has the money (FB maybe). He spends around 300-400g for not getting any stats but 2 permanent wards (that's what it nearly is). Now his top and mid don't have to buy wards. Support + jungle can ward all 4 entrances, and even when the enemy has an oracle, they don't lose too much cause they can go B and get knew ones without paying for them.

Now mid and top got a free g/10 stat cause they safe 75g every 3 min (25g per min while g/10 gives 30g per min).
The jungler spent 300-400g to give 2 solo lanes a free g/10 stat. But it doesn't start with +0 gold and ticks, but both start with +75 gold (*2 cause of 2 lanes and 2 wards) and then ticks.
It produces what riot wants to reduce: a jungler that strengthens the 2 solo lanes by making himself a partitial 2. support champ.
With or without Sightstone, the jungler could buy 2 wards every 3 minutes and do the same thing he would if he had Sightstone.

650G = Equals 8 Wards
Enough to have 2 wards on the map for 12 minutes.

The only difference is that Sightstone will be more cost efficient after 8 wards.


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Atyres

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by pantofla View Post
Warwick and Madred's late game was strong and the witch end cant hit 140 magic damage per hit on baron so madred.s was good plus madreds AND shaco double magic damage baron in 2 minutes...So i dont see why people say madred.s was underpower
140 a hit really isn't much in all honesty, where as you could instead pickup a Gunblade, Bloodthirster or the new Black Cleaver and deal out more damage while also upping your own sustain (Black Cleaver sustain is due to the newly added CDR).


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Tarulia

Junior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
No - just that the current set item for supports is basically wards that they have to purchase every single time they go back to lane. While the optimal number of wards on a map is roughly around 5 depending on which objectives are up - the current optimal number of wards you should buy on a given trip back is as many as you can and afford anything else.

This item basically non-linearizes the cost of wards for supports. There is a gold efficiency curve for wards to gold spent.



Yes, that's the theme of the upgrade.

However, we do want "overwarding" to actually have a significant cost - which comes in the form of inventory slot premiums like you're talking about here.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, make a counter for "wards placed" onto that item :P


Also, I read the posts about Madreds and Ionic spark and I was wondering if there's going to be a new item that builds from Recursive Bow? :P

Additionally, considering Ionic was introduced just this season, what were your original intentions of making this items? In which situations or on which champion should it have been picked off?


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup0fTea View Post
With or without Sightstone, the jungler could buy 2 wards every 3 minutes and do the same thing he would if he had Sightstone.

650G = Equals 8 Wards
Enough to have 2 wards on the map for 12 minutes.

The only difference is that Sightstone will be more cost efficient after 8 wards.
Yeah, but the item gives 125 HP (worth 330g currently). That means you spend only 320g for the wards. But you can use 2 of them (150g) and you don't waste a slot completely for wards (is worth a lot late game, so i put away 20g now for early game). So in the end you lose only around 150g for buying that item (g/10 items force you to spend over 200g for nearly 50% of this effect - Kages, Avarice, HoG)

After only 3 min, you got all gold back (but i think riot is going to increase HP effectiveness a bit, do it could be 4-5 min, too).

But even then, you will still be able to upgrade it, and the upgraded version won't be worse.

I have nothing against such an item for the supports, but it can be easily abused by another role (probably the jungler).

A limit of one per team could solve this problem probably.


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Bathroom

Junior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
So...what's the point of Blade of the Ruined King then, since it's even worse than a linear effect---it's a diminishing returns effect.

I really don't see what ranged characters it would be good on, in general----Kog'maw will be better served by IE, PD, LW, and BT---the only real option you can substitue out in this build is BT--IE is a must, PD increases that damage by a lot because of the crit chance and AS (not to mention free utility in MS), and LW beats a BT at 30 armor (no BT stacks) or 107 armor (full BT stacks)...considering these armor points are nearly always achieved on just about everyone, LW generally trumps BT, so it's the only logical thing you can switch out.

Blade of the ruined king would make sense instead of BT if it gave 4% all the time---it gives lifesteal, some damage, a decent proc, and a good active; that said, your overall sustain/survivability in a team-fight via DPS would be lower.

That said, once you factor in that it's current health, the DPS and survivability drop is so great that I'm really not sure if can compete in an ADC line-up.

Which goes back to the original question---who's going to build this? Urgot benefits too much from pure AD (and doesn't build that way), ADCs I've already explained, Jayce benefits more from BT because of his massive AD scaling....so that leaves us with Teemo.

I just don't see how this could work on ranged (besides Teemo, but it doesn't have super strong synergy with him since AS/on-hit Teemo doesn't build a lot of AD)---it seems bruisers would be able to use it more effectively at killing each other (sunfire+Blade would be ultra hard to counter)---but even then, as you point out, bruisers in general would do better with Wits End.

Maybe I'm just missing something.
Um. ADC were never supposed to build it. They didn't build MBR either. It's a bruiser item. The damage on BT isn't the main reason one would build it either. 20% lifesteal is amazing for a single slot. The AD is a bonus. Also your math is kinda flawed when it comes to champions like Kog'Maw, Corki, and Vayne. Due to his W, Kog'Maw comes out much stronger with a BT rather than a LW until about 250~ armor. Corki at about 200~, on Vayne you shouldnt even build Last Whisper because a Phantom Dancer increases damage more than any amount of armor would for the Last Whisper.

The active is super strong for diving enemy ADC as a Bruiser, and the lifesteal is based off of %life, so your AD doesn't need to be that high.


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QZip

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Can we still keep the Ionic Spark proc on some item? Because it's so satisfying. Zap, zap, lightning everywhere. Muhaha!


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Think about it that way:
The jungler gets also one cause he has the money (FB maybe). He spends around 300-400g for not getting any stats but 2 permanent wards (that's what it nearly is). Now his top and mid don't have to buy wards. Support + jungle can ward all 4 entrances, and even when the enemy has an oracle, they don't lose too much cause they can go B and get knew ones without paying for them.

Now mid and top got a free g/10 stat cause they safe 75g every 3 min (25g per min while g/10 gives 30g per min).
The jungler spent 300-400g to give 2 solo lanes a free g/10 stat. But it doesn't start with +0 gold and ticks, but both start with +75 gold (*2 cause of 2 lanes and 2 wards) and then ticks.
It produces what riot wants to reduce: a jungler that strengthens the 2 solo lanes by making himself a partitial 2. support champ.

WOAH! WOAH! WOAH! WOAH!
This situation you're describing is like having the "flour and water", the dough, the bread and the money from selling it...

First of all, with the current price of HP and wards (HP might rise, wards will drop), the item pays itself off after 5 wards, meaning that it's really a loss if you hang on to it for like at least 5 minutes (and it can be upgraded into an item you ill probably prefer if you're a jungle, since the upgrade sounds like it offers more wards out at 1 time, with less wards generation, so something like remove the 2wards limitation, boost the charges to 5/6). So even on a jungler, I feel this item is actually viable (although I would ward the blue entrance and the wraiths.

Next, pink wards and oracle still exist afaik, so if you simply hop by top and plant a ward there, they have the choice to remove them... So you are basically feeding him 100g per recall (if you plant all wards and he picks them all up).

Next, like he said, there are countless ganking paths, you can choose to come from river, jungle or lane, sure you can ward all 3 paths with 2 wards (1 in blue side top lane brush and the other in river brush), but then you lose A LOT of reaction time... heck you can even ward it farther, but if they have any dashes, they might be able to elude the river one (about 1/4th of the junglers can go around the most frequent wards, and another 1/4th-1/3rd can simply rush to you fast enough the the ward doesn't really matter, the rest can tower dive).

Onto the "safe farming", afaik, the other jungler probably did the same, meaning that it is a free farm vs free farm situation, going gp5 might not be the best idea unless you're stomping the opponent, in which case, it changed nearly nothing since you could already afford the ward (and/or counter-jungle/roam). Also, you considered that your lanes were saving 75g every 3 mins, meaning it only takes them 30 mins to afford the cheapest GP5, or 33 for a useful one (not Avarice), it certainly helped them snowball that lane (13-15 if you include the gp5 from the get go, which means it still only start ticking until after the lane).

Next, you say the Gp5 starts at +75, since the wards are already there, but you already used that 75g to buy your item, so remove another amount there...


And the point you didn't cover in this, is how god damn predictable this item makes you... *you can only have 2 "siprit" wards out at 1 time*, what that means is if you rely only on this to ward everything, there will be scheduled down times in your warding to either screw your lane (unexpected gank) or screw your jungle (counter-gank when you ward)... The only fix would be a 3-ward rotation where you buy 1 stack of ward and ward mid and top at 1-1.5 mins difference, meaning that you can hop by before your ward die to plant one, and then you'll have your 2nd spirit ward open to replace the 2nd before it vanshies... But then you are still buying wards, and you are still injecting money into items that gives you 0 stats, meaning you are even weaker, meaning that you can be counter-jungled easily (Remember that you only warded mid and top? ) So basically, you ward 2 lanes (top + mid), support wards 1.25 lane (bot + a bit of lower jungle), and you are squishy in the last .75 lane... Well played, but you'll never see the end of their invades (unless you start warding your jungle with those spirit wards... which means the lanes are open for gank or poorer from wards)


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NoGoodInGoodbye

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostradamusss View Post
Can anyone explain me how blade king is supposed to be a better option than madred ?

mathematically 4%current health is equivalent to 2%max health.

so
4% vs 2%
40% AS vs 0%
25armor vs sustain.

while i think the sustain is better than the 25armor, all the others stats are heavily nerfed. and even for 1000gold cheaper, no-one is gonna buy ruined blade king. That is my prediction. no point to buy a on-hit item with 1.0attack speed, poor warwick and teemo. also the blade is totally useless on ranged since the active range is so short, so kog maw madred is definitivly dead.

I totally don't understand why you say on-hit will be viable while you nerf into the ground on-hit item.

on-hit item was the only counter to thornmail.

So, it sound so obvious that thornmail will be an instabuy item for everyone in s3 since there will be no counter.
I would buy this item 100x more than the current madred's on any char. It is WAY better and is actually worth a slot, it's not a noob trap that makes you think you are "good" against tanks. Whenever a carry in one of my games buys it I facepalm so hard. With the sustain it's a decent alternative to BT if you don't wanna spend all this time getting stacks. Also, the range is used for KITING so I don't know how it's not useful considering the amount of damage a carry can do in those 2 seconds of being inescapable to your target aside from CC and blinking over a wall.