Twisted Treeline AMA Recap

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CookiesforSanta

Junior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot GTez View Post
[aws3]news/November_2012/2012_11_07_Twisted_Treeline_AMA/Twisted_Treeline_Top.jpg[/aws3]

We recently took some time to talk to the League of Legends Reddit community about the unveiling of the new Twisted Treeline. On October 26, a few Rioters involved in the map’s creation answered some of your most burning questions about design, lore and art of the revamped TT. Here are the highlights!

  • Rob “rjcombo” Garrett
  • Travis “Volibar” George
  • Jesse “GTez” Houston
  • Richard “Nome” Liu: Lead Designer
  • Matt “Milizia” Milizia
  • Christina “Kitae” Norman



Gershizzle: When will Treeline be out of beta?

GTez:
We will likely bring it out of beta when we are comfortable with the overall state of the map and item balance. We don't have a timeframe for this yet, but we have a team of really smart folks working on it.



Accident_Pedo: What was the motivation behind creating the new map?

Rjcombo:
The motivations were actually pretty straightforward. On the gameplay side we wanted to address the issues of champion balance and game length. On the presentation side we wanted to create the best looking map we've ever delivered, and reinforce the theme of the Shadow Isles as a flavorful, memorable region in Runeterra.



HecticD: How did you guys come up with the idea of the altars?

Nome:
One of the design points we noted very early on was that a small map could not support the level of warding and counter-warding that Summoner's Rift could due to the presence of natural choke points and limited pathways. We knew that wards had to go, so we pursued alternative schemes of vision control. One thing we toyed with was the idea of capturable lanterns – neutral wards that the player could control, either through channeling or lighting with a consumable "lamp oil.” This idea slowly transformed into the idea of altars as we added more tangible rewards and purpose to controlling them.

We experimented with every aspect of altar capture and rewards, but found that players universally enjoyed altars more when there was a sense of permanence to their capture. It also pushed the pace of the game, as you could capture an altar without fear that your progress would be reversed as soon as you left or died.



Martinuggla: Why didn't you guys just release the new Twisted Treeline as a new map and keep the old one?

Volibar:
When we started looking at Twisted Treeline really heavily at the beginning of this year, there were a lot of major issues that we and the community noticed. Turtling was rampant, the meta was pretty stale, and there were a number of exploits that had way too much of an impact on the game. There was no way to adequately address these by doing a few simple changes here and there. We tried many different layouts, some more dramatic than others, and a ton of other solutions. Buffs, items, altars, etc. all play into this as well and we playtested the hell out of it the whole way with the goal of preserving the fast paced, high action 3v3 feel that we thought TT should represent.



Nocticate: Can you keep the old TT as a custom game mode?

Volibar:
We want to make sure that we don't split the focus of our players for each game type. For the same reason we probably won't ever go create a 5v5 map that's really similar to Summoner’s Rift, we didn't want to split the TT community between two maps – especially if competitive play is to grow on TT, having two maps, even in custom games, is detrimental to that.



Ghemba: Was one of the reasons you re-vamped the old TT to make this one more balanced for potential competitive play? More interest in Ranked TT, for instance? Was this design also created with the thought of Ranked solo queue TT in mind? Also with the professional play in mind?

Volibar:
As you should know, we're pretty big fans of competitive play. I'm certainly hoping more people will try out Ranked 3s and find it fun and compelling. Personally, I think the future of competitive TT could be really exciting as we will start to see some new strategies and comps emerge and evolve.

If we get more people into Ranked TT and start to see some interest, a strong scene could emerge from tournament organizers as well. We will be keeping a close eye on this, but ultimately it's about interest and participation.

We discussed solo queue Ranked for a while, but liked team experience that 3s offers and found that it wasn't a big barrier to entry.

If we see more participation in competitive 3s going forward, this could be an option we add.



Rathedan: Are you guys expecting the meta to move away from a three bruiser lineup in any way? Or do you think it'll stay three beefy characters – one per lane and a jungler? I know the items are meant to address some of this, but being balanced around 5v5 really makes it tough from what I can see.

Nome:
Bruisers will always remain the mainstay of Twisted Treeline. As you pointed out, the game is designed at its core for 5v5 encounters, so for Twisted Treeline and Dominion (since full teamfights are rare), design has to be adaptive and use levers unique to those maps and modes. In this case, three big factors are itemization, gold flow (more is better for AD carry and late-game champions), and the experience curve (bruisers benefit more from levels, so we slightly increased the amount of experience necessary for leveling). The levers are in place, and because we're monitoring trends very closely, we'll be making adjustments to make sure the appropriate champions are hit properly.

That's not to say that AD carries, squishies, and supports aren't useful right now. Try laning a Vayne and Taric together, for example, or running a Soraka/Janna solo lane. Caitlyn and Ezreal are both great AD carry choices as well. Caitlyn can trap the middle to prevent invades, while Ezreal can flash away from most threats. Don't be discouraged by triple-bruiser team compositions. The map is new, and players are bound to cling to existing paradigms. You'd be surprised what you can find with experimentation... I don't want to spoil too much!



Normanix: Did you design the jungle to be able to let a jungler level there or is it just there for some free farm? I really feel like three camps is a little scarce.

Nome:
The camps are scarce, you're correct. Jungling on the new Twisted Treeline is designed to be an open affair and easier camps allow for quick invades; the respawns are timed so that with Smite, you are able to clear your side, heal, buy, and then continue the cycle. The jungle is in close enough proximity to the lanes such that if you shove, you can get a bit of extra gold or go gank.

It's certainly a paradigm-shift from the old TT or SR, both of which feature jungles as dominating map features. Junglers in the new TT can circle-farm (great for Amumu if he wants to rush 3 GP10 into Blackfire Torch), but quick-clear junglers like Shyvana who can use the extra time to gank.



StrangleletPL: Is TT more CPU intensive than SR? I get fewer FPS all the time and my laptop seems to be slowing down when a lot of stuff happens. I have no such problems in SR.

GTez:
There is a separate global performance issue that we are currently investigating that affects all maps. Given the way TT is structured, your laptop may be affected more on TT than on SR.



xBaShBrOsx: What made you guys decide to limit the vision on the map to the alters and actives on items and remove wards?

rjcombo:
There are a number of reasons for the changes related to vision. The reduced size of the map (we removed almost all of the top jungle) means a couple of strategically placed wards would make ganking overly difficult. We also wanted players to focus their gold income on items that empower their champion in combat instead of wards. Finally the temporary vision actives on Hextech Sweeper and Grez's Spectral Lantern add interesting gameplay choices without having to completely sacrifice the stats you want on a champion.
*******


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Open The Door

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Thick walls, altars, no wards, speed boost, more bushes, tight space. Yeah, not really liking it, I expected more from this remake, why not just remodel the map like how they did to Summoners Rift? That was what I was looking forward to, not this ****ty map, thanks for ruining 3v3 for everyone.


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Open The Door

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fetid Wang View Post
What disgusts me about the comments on this post is that anyone who has anything good to say about the new map gets down voted. I don't like the new map personally but i think its great that others enjoy playing it. Just because their opinion is different doesn't make it wrong. Down voting them doesn't make your opinion better.
The majority of us want the old one back, you do too don't you? if they like this map, then they must have also liked the old TT, Besides, most of them are just kissing riots ass to look good.


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Saucey

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Senior Member

11-09-2012

LOL riot, you guys strived to make shorter matches, i have asked almost all my friends that play threes still, each of their average times i asked they said 25-30 minutes. really riot? at least in old TT you knew if you lost, you didnt have to try to even make a comeback, i have yet to witness a comeback ever being made. a lot of friends have quit, i only play the map because you are forcing us too. if it wasnt for that i wouldnt play that wretched map. its horrific and annoying. its a slugfest of just ganking, face it you dont care about the TT community because we all have said we dont want that stupid annoying worthless map, yet you guys are shoving it down our throats. if it wasnt for me spending so much money on this game i would have been gone, ive been supporting you all for so long, telling so many people about the game, so it can turn up to WE DONT CARE SUCK IT type of community, i know you guys arent like that but thats how you are making it seem by ignoring 90% of the bad feedback. we did give good feedback too, that you listen to, bad feed? you guys hide in your little caves. all i got to say is screw you riot for ruining my favorite map. i hate this game. now i have a reason to focus on xbox gaming. thank you. and i was going to start a threes team for rank and a brand new 5's rank team. psh il be on and off for as long as i play that game just to solo que on rank and done. you disappointed me so much with this. Even during beta you guys were getting a ton of feedback and everyone explaining the flaws, but did you listen? no. you even ignored pbe. you ignored community players. loyal fans. for everyone just liking "new" things. most of these guys that like this map are Dominon players, or non true TT players. if you can put dominon in its own category why not put SI in its own category?. stop being lazy and do something the community would appreciate. we want the old map instead of this craptastic map. please just do us all a favor for once. Imagine if you did this change to SR and then said its going to stay like that and the old SR will never come back? then will you listen? no matter how many paragraphs, sentences, no matter how many of the world has tried hard to get the old one back. you shove us all back like meaningful trash. its true. riot you are just a business trying to make money. well we fell for your trap. just not going to spend my money anymore besides maybe changing my in game name. goodluck riot. i dare you to put magma chambers and replace SR. see how hurt everyone will be.


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ShickenChit

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Do something about the snowballing, it's worse than before, since you can get locked out of your altar and lose gold gen as the game progresses, and eventually you can't even make your way to the center speed buff, because spawn timers for the other team are so low since they rarely die.
2-4 kills in the first 5 mins basically settle a match. And the fact that AD carries can get almost 100% armor pen including the flat armor pen from new items.
The only way to 'Tank' on the new TT is to buy straight HP items. Armor and MR end up being so weak mid/late game, and only works if you can build resists early.
Also losing Guardian angel is a bad loss, since there isn't any other MR/Armor mix item to replace it.


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ShickenChit

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenStream View Post
Wow, removing wards, seriously, O **** WE FORGOT THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED A TEEMO, OPPS. Give me back my old TT, and put the new one in as a NEW map. Its not all that hard. Anyone who doesn't wanna play the old TT can play the new one. Why would you remove a map from play? Personally dislike the new TT. ALOT.
^this is another huge problem, champs still have 'warding abilities' some better than others, teemo being by far the best. His 'wards' are free, do dmg, and slow if ppl step on them, and he can have a multitude of them down at once, more so than someone who's buying wards.

I also would like to point out, that about 80% of the posts I've read from this thread are people, disagreeing with the choice of ONLY the new map, and not 're-vamping' old TT.
The altar system is a nice niche idea, but not needed or wanted from the community who plays TT on a regular basis.

It's a great idea for the new players who probably started off on dominion, and are seeking a similar game choice with less players.

That's what the playbase loved about TT, less players but still a SR 'feel' to the map and playstyle, I started off on TT and lvl'd to 30 solely on that gametype, and went to 5v5 and ranked 5v5 after when I felt comfortable with my champ choices and playstyles from a smaller enviroment.

Shall you be adding altars to SR? Because I know the community would flame you for that. So why do this to a traditional and loved map that's been around as long as I can remember.

Still a fan and loyal LoL gamer, ShickenChit. Though sorely dissapointed at the moment.


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ShickenChit

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno?ltima View Post
Unlike most people who begin playing league on Summoner's Rift, my brother and I commenced playing on the 3v3 map about 2 years ago. The old Twisted Treeline was our home and although I love many of the changes Riot has inculcated to make the game better, this is not one of them. I must agree that the design of the new map is beautiful, but in our opinion it is no where near as enjoyable as the previous map. Vilemaw is the only exception. The new items and banning of old items is a huge disappointment. Prohibition of warding is a total let down. And the altars remind me too much of dominion (which honestly I don't enjoy). I would have hoped there was a way to fix the flaws of the old map without altering it beyond recognition. This is only our opinion, however. Wish we could play both maps.
^agree 100%


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Positive Dubstep

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Junior Member

11-09-2012

to bad all this was for 3v3 when dota has a brand new 5v5 map.. we need a 10v10 map get bigger with ideas not smaller


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BBJames

Member

11-09-2012

Who cares what the REDDIT community thinks. I haven't met a Reddit player who can actually play a game without cheating, at least in FPS games anyway. Worthless community, burn their servers!


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Havenstance

Member

11-09-2012

Remake = HORRIBLE, BAD, STUPID, LISTEN TO YOUR ****ING COMMUNITY RIOT!!!!!!! WE ALL HATE THIS ****ING MAP.... Give us the old TT or we'll all end up playing with SMITE.