Barrier destroys gameplay, here's why.

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Omendaos

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Correct, numbers are being changed for SR. You could say the same thing about Heal, and it doesn't destroy the game
@Morello
Will heal be remade to heal a percentage of Health(heals every teammate around you for % of their max HP) as opposed to a set amount. Or would this create problems?


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Dr W

Senior Member

11-08-2012

morello stahp barrier is such a garbage spell keep it in aram


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Vertchewal

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatleaf View Post
You basically described what heal can do already
But any form of grievous wound effects any kind of heal including the Summoner Spell. The only to prevent a barrier would be to silence someone. It's pretty much any other kind of shield with a long cool down.


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Torahammashirvi

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

I agree. Say NO to barrier in SR


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Maha

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pool Party Ziggs View Post
It's taken on Proving Grounds because Flash is not needed there.
If it is taken on Summoner's Rift, that means the person had to give up either Flash, or Exhaust/Smite/Ignite.

ANYTHING that will discourage Flash+Ignite/Exhaust/Smite on everybody every game is welcome in my book.
I use Flash Barrier in ARAM.


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Sabortoothsloth

Member

11-08-2012

Should def not be in SR, even if they nerf it, it would destroy game play, and would act as an auto pick spell that all have and will jus be a downfall. so please dont bring it to SR leave it where it belongs in ARAM!


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danielking4812

Junior Member

11-08-2012

I think the problem with the summoners spells today is that there are pretty much only five, being generous to teleport, viable summoner spells that people take. If they want to put barrier in, It's fine with me as long as they balance it. It should probably be on a longer cooldown, though. But also, how are the new summoner spells going to fit into the masteries? Like is there going to be a buff for barrier? I mean it's possible that they could make going into utility better by putting summoner spells deep in there. It seems logical... Anyways, diversity in this game is something it thrives on, and more is probably better.


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Pulverkuss

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Even ignoring the fact that Barrier's numbers will be adjusted, let's break down these ridiculous points one by one just at face value...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Paprikachu View Post
Hello GD.

I'm pretty sure everyone reading this has at least tried ARAM once. Almost everyone takes either Barrier, Heal, or both. This destroys gameplay, and here's why:

1) Barrier is almost always used defensively. You only use this spell, when it's already too late. It has no other use than saving your ass.

Right off the bat, you give the impression that you're against spells with pure defensive purposes. I immediately have to question, quite simply, "why?" What's wrong with pure defensive spells? And isn't Heal the same way? Granted, the thread title labels both Barrier and Heal, so fair enough. But isn't Cleanse also the same way? I doubt you're gonna precast a Cleanse on yourself, anticipating a slow so that its short buff reduces it. No, you're going to pop it once you get stunned - or in your own words, "when it's already too late."

But if you're aiming for spells to be more multi-purpose, such as Exhaust, Flash, and Teleport, I'd actually argue that such things are MUCH, MUCH more unhealthy for the game than spells dedicated to either defense or offense. If you're in a given situation where you need to know if someone has defensive or offensive options available, and they have all these summoner spells that can go either way, then there's no real way to make a proper play. It creates an edge for the people with the multi-purpose, because while you can only Ignite them for damage, they could Exhaust you to not only turn your damage off, but to aggress on you and kill you.

It creates a situation that we call in the fighting game world a "cross-up". It's basically (under ideal circumstances) a player creating a situation where the opponent can either block correctly and not take a combo in the face, or block incorrectly and take big damage - but it is completely a 50/50 either way, and totally safe in either result for the player who uses it. And that is extremely unhealthy game design.


Quote:
2) It punishes aggressive play. Imagine someone trying to kill you with a flash+ignite or some spell. You use Barrier to escape. That guy has two spells on cooldown and no escape for a long time, for nothing. This is made worse by the fact that its cooldown is much lower than flash's.

Flash + Ignite for a kill, first and foremost, is extremely frustrating and lame to have happen to you, and makes me, at least, feel very lame when I do it. It's not "good play" by any extension of the term. It's just blowing two arguably-overpowered summoner spell CD's in a row to make up for your inability to seal the deal yourself.

Also - again - Heal would counter this as well. And while - yes, again - you state that you have beef with Heal as well, I am going to have to start harassing you about why you never made this thread about Heal before this Barrier concept came into play.

Perhaps these changes would make people think twice before totally blowing their immensely-valuable multipurpose Flash cooldown just to Flash Ignite someone who has a Barrier as an option. So if you blow Flash Ignite on a guy with Barrier, it's obviously your own fault for taking the risk that his Barrier CD wouldn't be up.

And if you're complaining that you won't be able to just Flash Ignite whoever you want completely blindly, then you're... just... a scrubby bad player...


Quote:
3) It rewards bad play. Wrong positioning? Just use Barrier to get out for free.
You don't get out for free even REMOTELY as much as Flash or Ghost do. It absorbs damage, not CC's, and it doesn't TELEPORT or SPRINT you out of a situation.


Quote:
4) It is crazy OP. It's basically +25% HP for free.

Ignoring the numbers change that Morello's stated, and going off of its originals tats as I said to imply for my post, yeah, this would be a legitimate point. But it would be better worded in the sense that it would simply replace Heal by just being better in (almost) every way, rather than being a completely different new spell.


Quote:
5) Unlike Heal, there is no counter to it.
Honestly, the counter to it is the only strength Heal would have over Barrier.

Heal actually HEALS you. So you now ALWAYS have that health. This means that perhaps you can keep laning or whatnot.

But Barrier, on the other hand, is instant gratification with nothing after the fact. If you were low before using Barrier, you will be low after using it, and will probably just Recall to avoid dying anyway. The game isn't about getting kills all the time. If you force your enemy to Recall, it means you can now get ahead in levels and gold. Which... is exactly the same as killing them anyway...


Quote:
6) Its strengh is even more multiplied with the amount of armor and magic resist a player has.
Same with Heal.

And on the flip side, I think it's more of a problem that Ignite doesn't CARE about your armor or magic resist.


Quote:
Flash does not suffer from any of these problems. It does not give you stats, it can be used offensively and it only buys you a small amount of time, you can still be outrun by champs with higher movement speed.

I mean...

Flash does suffer from the problems, as I have addressed.







TLDR:

L2P issue.


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port5

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

it scales 1:1 to kog maws passive. Anyone else thinks this is ****ed up? it is TWICE as effective as ignite, (however ignite will still get a full second of damage), so that's also messed because of cooldowns.


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port5

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Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulverkuss View Post
honestly, the counter to it is the only strength Heal would have over Barrier.

Heal actually HEALS you. So you now ALWAYS have that health. This means that perhaps you can keep laning or whatnot.

But Barrier, on the other hand, is instant gratification with nothing after the fact. If you were low before using Barrier, you will be low after using it, and will probably just Recall to avoid dying anyway. The game isn't about getting kills all the time. If you force your enemy to Recall, it means you can now get ahead in levels and gold. Which... is exactly the same as killing them anyway...
You seem to forget that ignite can be countered with barrier hardcore, where as ignite halves the effectiveness of heal thus barely outdamaging it. (which i guess can be a rock paper scissors scenario, however, barrier cd>heal cd> ignite cd, nullifying even any possible use of ignite against barrier.) Also, there are about 10 other spells and items that counter heals. The problem with barrier is that it is on an extremely short cooldown and can entirely nullify heavy hitting spells like karth's ult, kogs passive, zyras passive, nunu's ult, ignite, etc. And it will almost always be up for the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulverkuss View Post
Even ignoring the fact that Barrier's numbers will be adjusted, let's break down these ridiculous points one by one just at face value...
They really need to modify the values.