Preseason Itemization Preview

First Riot Post
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Critkeeper

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
We may potentially have to go back and look at characters like Xerath / Darius - but honestly, I question whether or not building Armor against Darius worked in the first place and Xerath will basically kill whoever he wants once every 60 seconds.

Flat Penetration can't counter early game armor stacking. In fact, Flat Penetration currently *loses* to early armor stacking. Chain Vest > All the Penetration you can buy ever.



Physical % Max Health damage characters won't be any more abusive than if they had just gotten a Last Whisper. And if they have both - well, they're paying for it in other ways - such as having lower AD than a full IE or BT build for example.

All I am trying to say is that if a champion comes along that has everything in his kit natural designed for taking out low resistances high health targets, and yet in that same kit has a large amount of flat armor penetration, or a large amount of flat armor reduction, then that could be a balance issue.

In other words this champion could build specifically to take out a high armor low health target, and yet simply stacking health isn't effective against this champion, and neither is stacking armor. Sure he wouldn't do as much damage against squishies if he stacks armor penetration and just relies on his scaling from health damage against the hp-tanks, but really, how much effort does it take to kill a squishy when you penetrate all of their armor anyway? Probably a little more than if you had spent your money on flat attack damage rather than the black cleaver, but you will still probably kill them in 2 or 3 seconds.

So far, no champion really meets all of that criteria, and lee sin only comes close, but it is something to be aware of.


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SulphoR

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes and no? AD Tanky Champions output a wide array of magical and physical damage mostly. Udyr and Shyvana for example, are split pretty heavily between magical and physical - while characters like Darius and Irelia do magic/phys/true.

They don't care about your armor. They care about their *own* armor.

If you're talking about Garen specifically, being overpowered, that's kind of his own thing - but again, one of the largest sources of Garen's damage is magic-based.

goodjob garen is pretty terrible then isnt it. wouldnt want him to be strong with these changes comming into play.


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Irie Vibrator

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Swordsme View Post
You do realise that by buffing black cleaver, this makes AD champions and especially AD Tanky Champions such as garen far more overpowered that before. This would cause people to take advantage of that and just dominate all game
I'd like to see your calculations and such on that matter...

Right, you don't have any because haven't gotten the full scoop on how much their adjusting armor pen values and whatnot. These items are also going to have some big trade offs...

New BC has 45 AD. Compared to 100 from BT, or 80 from IE, that's a pretty big drop in damage. Since it's now % penetration instead of flat, it's not nearly as usefull against low-armor targets, and you now have that much less AD.

I highly doubt it's going to make tanky AD OP, please crawl back under your rock until the patch hits and we actually have solid data.


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GrimoireM

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al3x4ndar View Post
Man when you guys 1st announced changing order of flat and % armor pen. I hoped that this will make armor pen. runes more viable as well as Brutalizer/Ghostblade and Black Cleaver (old). What you're doing instead is nerfing every source of flat armor pen.

Brutalizer had 50% more armor pen., Ghostblade had 150% more compared to new BC (and probably to new version of itself), and then you're nerfing runes.

Problem with flat armor pen. was that it was becoming weaker late game. So when you announced changes I thought you'll make it viable throughout whole game, but what you'll do with this nerf to its values is that you'll make it non viable investment at all stages of the game if amount will be that small. So % penetration will be even better choice over flat then it already was.
The thing is, with % penetration and reduction taking down the majority of an opponent's defenses, flat penetration becomes even more effective, as it's contending with lower values of armor/resist. Due to how these defenses are calculated, the initial points in armor/resist mitigate far more damage than successive points, so shaving them off is even more crucial. Stacking a mix of flat pen and % pen in this scenario thus ends up being even more effective compared to the current system, which actually makes a mix of both less effective than going purely % or flat.

What I'm wondering is, will flat reduction be applied after % penetration to support this further?


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Darkness Beckons

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

ashe voley + this item = OP


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Al3x4ndar

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Flat Penetration can't counter early game armor stacking. In fact, Flat Penetration currently *loses* to early armor stacking. Chain Vest > All the Penetration you can buy ever.
Right now you can have 25 armor pen. from runes, 6 from masteries and 15 from Brutalizer for early game, which makes it 46. So you can still do some damage vs targets that get early Chain Vest (plus their base armor, runes and possible Cloth Amor) if you get early Brutalizer. But with this nerf to flat pen. values you won't do any damage vs that guy who rush Chain Vest.


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Exentrick

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Black cleaver on darius' bleed. Holy ****.


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Holycleave

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Junior Member

11-07-2012

So with these new changes will champions that were balanced around having armor reductions (i.e. wukong) be buffed because their relative strength has effectively weakened? Are you also hitting sustain in top lane to prevent champions with built in sustain from abusing sustain stack to push ad casters and assassins out of lane? Have you looked at giving champions with 0 sustain higher hp/5 in their base stats to compensate from this weakness that gimps them in top lane?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

11-07-2012
14 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Basically: Is Early Armor Stacking going to continue to be a trump card against champs like Talon and Riven in Season 3? (e.g., Ninja Tabi + Chain Vest = Lane Over.)
Most likely. That's a problem with those specific characters doing all physical damage and not a problem with the overall strategic decision-making as a whole, in my opinion.

There'll be some slight tuning on resistances (because resistances are a little bit too cheap in our game overall) - but Talon / Riven were made essentially assuming that armor-stack should hard-counter them.

Quote:
So this new Black Cleaver, we can now initiate fights with MF's ult and just shred the entire enemy team's armor values, correct?
Yes. There's a slight trade-off between optmizing MF's damage by buying Last Whisper or buying BC and shredding everyone for your team.

I would get BC on MF if I had some more physical damage characters on my team but they didn't have good ways of applying BC, like a Lee Sin/Kha'zix or something.

Quote:
Kha'Zix deals a high amount of physical damage with a percentage of their missing health added on to it. Now he gets to shred their armor as well? This pretty much destroys your "if they stack health but don;t build armor it won't work" argument.
Kind of. Kha'Zix would be much better served building Last Whisper if he was simply murdering people by himself. 40% Armor Penetration > 25% Armor Shred.

Quote:
Black cleaver on darius' bleed. Holy ****.
Darius' bleed is magic. >_>


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Ginga

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Is there any plans on changing Tiamat or giving it an upgrade so that it's viable on more than just Twitch? Some people use it on Fiora and Shyvanna, but that's not exactly optimal on them, just a fun troll build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
On a high armored target, think about pre-applying some stacks via autoattacks before blowing your main damage spells. Pantheon's Spear Shot, for example, has something akin to a 4 second cooldown. If you're really up against a tank/bruiser with high armor / low health - suddenly that pre-fight harass becomes much more important to how your full-combo pans out.
If you're an AD Assassin like Talon, Kha'zix, and....is there anyone else?


Anyways, if you're either of those two AD Assassins, AA-harassing is just asking to get brutalized by the enemy's bruiser. AD Assassins have only succeeded by jumping in, bursting, and hoping the enemy is either dead, or too stupid to counter-attack and just gave you a free combo off of them. Running up to them to get some AA-harass is kinda asking to get CC'd and then stomped into the ground by Pantheon or Renekton. While Talon can opt to go mid thanks to silence, Kha'zix can't.