[Featured Discussion] Flat health heal on hit item. why not?

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Rockman

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Vayne or Kog'maw don't suddenly just dissappear because your team has 2 or 3 Frozen Hearts. It just takes them an extra three seconds to destroy your entire team, as ranged carries are about sustained damage.
....... you do know only one works right?


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fCKzAr View Post
( Linken's Sphere is just broken in DOTA with the 20 sec cooldown.
Abilities in DotA are much more powerful than they are in LoL, not to mention Linken's is a ridiculously expensive item. Imagine if Banshee's veil cost about 3,500 gold and provided no MR---with its current massive shield cooldown, it would be considered worthless.

Heck, even in its current state it's considered largely worthless--when's the last time you've seen it in a high Elo match? For bruisers, Maw tends to be better and for ADCs QSS generally provides what they want more of ("blocking" CC).


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Maybe this should be for another thread/big reveal, but what about the "supposed" switch for % and Flat penetration, specifically for magic? Does this help out the situation for bursty casters? What about for sustained mages? Will it even happen? (I'm curious especially for what might happen to my fave mage Xerath with his innate magic pen)


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Jaystander

Senior Member

11-06-2012

I personally would love to hear about how AD carry itemization is being nerfed moreso than anything else. I remember hearing about little to no choices being involved in optimization of a ranged AD carry and was wondering if their high tier items are being scattered to the wind like FoN is. It would probably make me really happy :P


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xDankcannabisx

Junior Member

11-06-2012

http://www.twitch.tv/azubufrostblaze
will be doing commentary


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fCKzAr

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If by uncounterable you mean 'Make less effective' - then yes. Frozen Heart is effectively uncounterable. Frozen Heart may be overpowered - sure. But that's a different discussion from 'Frozen Heart is fundamentally uncounterable.'

Vayne or Kog'maw don't suddenly just dissappear because your team has 2 or 3 Frozen Hearts. It just takes them an extra three seconds to destroy your entire team, as ranged carries are about sustained damage.

Contrast this with ability power mages - whose primary function is to typically provide large amounts of area of effect damage in as short a time frame as possible. High amounts of slot-efficient magic resistance typically tends to be a much harder counter to mages due to the bursty nature of their damage.
But the difference here is, that ADs get jumped by tanks, bruisers, assassins, and even said mages, while burst mages have only one mission, to kill the carries and have a lot of mobility (LeBlanc) or somewhat reliable CC (Veigar) to do that. So ADs have a much harder time in teamfights, since most of them don't have great mobility (like Vayne/Kog), die in 1 ns, so they have to kill things fast. Randuin's is fine, since it's dodgeable, but FH has no counterplay at all. I just think that FH is badly designed, cannot be itemized against, cannot be dodged due to its 1000 range.

How can FH be fixed? Reduce the range to 475 (so poor Sivir has a chance too, otherwise 500) so tanks are rewarded when they're in your face, but ADs don't feel like they have no means to outplay or counter.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If by uncounterable you mean 'Make less effective' - then yes. Frozen Heart is effectively uncounterable. Frozen Heart may be overpowered - sure. But that's a different discussion from 'Frozen Heart is fundamentally uncounterable.'

Vayne or Kog'maw don't suddenly just dissappear because your team has 2 or 3 Frozen Hearts. It just takes them an extra three seconds to destroy your entire team, as ranged carries are about sustained damage.

Contrast this with ability power mages - whose primary function is to typically provide large amounts of area of effect damage in as short a time frame as possible. High amounts of slot-efficient magic resistance typically tends to be a much harder counter to mages due to the bursty nature of their damage.
Maybe Frozen heart and the other items designed specifically to counter physical damage carries wouldn't need to be overpowered if ranged carries weren't overpowered. This whole game revolves around protecting the ranged ad carry, simply because one moving glass turret can presumably do better with 4 man protection than any other combination of champion archetypes. All stages of the game revolve around the ranged ad carry in some respect, whether it be protecting her in the early stages of the game (dedicated to this is a whole class of champions), or peeling for her in the later stages of the game.

I think that the diversity of viable champions, the coordination and increase in general player cooperation is a result of the now fairly stagnant "send the ad carry bot lane with a support" meta. But really it emphasizes one thing: Ranged ad carries are overpowered. They are so overpowered late game they need a whole class of champions to protect them in the early game or else any smart team will shut them down before they get a chance to have a late game. They are so overpowered that tanks and bruisers with have to exist with overpowered abilities and itemization just to compete. Mages have have overpowered burst, range, or utility to be a threat to these ranged ad carries. Ultimately this creates a fun opportunity for everyone to feel powerful in their own right, but who does it leave out?

Melee carries.


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If by uncounterable you mean 'Make less effective' - then yes. Frozen Heart is effectively uncounterable. Frozen Heart may be overpowered - sure. But that's a different discussion from 'Frozen Heart is fundamentally uncounterable.'

Vayne or Kog'maw don't suddenly just dissappear because your team has 2 or 3 Frozen Hearts. It just takes them an extra three seconds to destroy your entire team, as ranged carries are about sustained damage.

Contrast this with ability power mages - whose primary function is to typically provide large amounts of area of effect damage in as short a time frame as possible. High amounts of slot-efficient magic resistance typically tends to be a much harder counter to mages due to the bursty nature of their damage.
Did you ever know that you're my hero?

You're everything I wish I could be.

I can fly higher than an eagle.

Because you are the wind beneath my wings.


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

11-06-2012

Quote:
Maybe Frozen heart and the other items designed specifically to counter physical damage carries wouldn't need to be overpowered if ranged carries weren't overpowered. This whole game revolves around protecting the ranged ad carry, simply because one moving glass turret can presumably do better with 4 man protection than any other combination of champion archetypes. All stages of the game revolve around the ranged ad carry in some respect, whether it be protecting her in the early stages of the game (dedicated to this is a whole class of champions), or peeling for her in the later stages of the game.

I think that the diversity of viable champions, the coordination and increase in general player cooperation is a result of the now fairly stagnant "send the ad carry bot lane with a support" meta. But really it emphasizes one thing: Ranged ad carries are overpowered. They are so overpowered late game they need a whole class of champions to protect them in the early game or else any smart team will shut them down before they get a chance to have a late game. They are so overpowered that tanks and bruisers with have to exist with overpowered abilities and itemization just to compete. Mages have have overpowered burst, range, or utility to be a threat to these ranged ad carries. Ultimately this creates a fun oppurtunity for everyone to feel powerful in their own right, but who does it leave out?

Melee carries.
There was a period in the game where Ranged carries were nerfed into the ground. It did not bring melee carries into viability. It made the game all tanky dps all the time in all the lanes.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotBuzzJack View Post
If Frozen Heart is so OP why did you guys never nerf it?
It is hard to call CDR, Mana, and Armor an overpowered combination.

The only thing about Frozen Heart that has stood out as a problem was the cdr back when it was 25%, and Frozen Heart + Randuin's Omen pushed any bruiser or tank the cdr cap. That issue was fixed.

Frozen Heart reduces an already very powerful source of damage. By my calculations, a Malphite using Ground Slam, Randuin's Omen, and Frozen Heart brings a fully-built carry's dps down to roughly 200 from 800 damage per second. Most mages and bruisers can be assumed to have between 200-300 dps unhindered. These numbers are pre-mitigation, armor will of course reduce those numbers further.