[Featured Discussion] Flat health heal on hit item. why not?

First Riot Post
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EFG

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Can you make the GA revive debuff not tick down without the GA remaining in your inventory if you are hitting the base stats and making it more of an item you only want for the revive?.


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DG Nighthawk

Master Recruiter

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
This stat 'Heal a % of your maximum health on strike' is probablly one of the most fun statistics in PvE games - because you get all this intricate crunchy stuff trying to proc it and such and optimizing the heal versus the proc rate, etc.

In a PvP game, this number optimization is actually kind of detrimental to overall flow - because you don't have the luxury of crunchy build optimization. You have to win now against the opponents you have now, with the build you have now. Is Attack Damage more important? Is Resists? Is Health? Build that.

Basically, it's one of those statistics that have a ton of conditionals riding on it that tend to make it unstable and actually kind of annoying when you don't have perfect item build control.
Why is this detrimental to the flow of the game? I know that many champions scale off attack speed (eg teemo, shen, ww, xin, skarner, cho, mundo, gangplank, diana, irelia, etc, the list goes on. All of these champions also benefit from health as well. Melee champions inherently benefit from health because they have to get into melee range in order to do damage. Most melees get a gapcloser in order to somewhat make up for this, but it's generally fairly easy for people to kite them still. Introducing a new item or changing mechanics on old items would mean that these champions get more bang for their buck in order to build the way they need to. Building tank for the sake of not dying is generally what most melees are forced to do, because there are really very very few items that contribute to both tankiness and damage for melees. Certainly there are some champions that can build tanky for a different reason, who are generally referred to as true tanks, eg Shen, but most melee champions like GP, Mundo etc aren't used because they can't be tanky and do damage at the same time, this would solve some issues.


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Yasuchika

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Farewell Force of Nature, you shall be missed. :'(


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Magetooth

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Junior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
While it's nice to have a few items like this - it's probably a sign as a whole that people want to be able to somehow spend more gold to get mobility rather than they want catered items that have MS on the item.

It'd actually be very nice if the meta wasn't so based on movement speed right now. Then every new champion wouldn't need a gap closer/movement speed steroid.


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Olivier1o1

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Morde is very viable at the moment I feel. You just need to play smart with his ghosts, and play smart about getting his ghosts.


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Emailsúpport

Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Quite honestly, I have no idea. There's a lot of moving parts here on changes.

Force of Nature served three purposes, one of which we couldn't make good.

1. High end MR item on one item.

We're not sure that a single rushed item should counter mages so heavily. So buying FoN for raw magic resistance was always going to be somewhat of a trap because we could never make it *good* to have this much MR on a single item without it simply being cost-inefficient so it could be slot-efficient.

There are ways to make an item cost-inefficient for selfish MR while still making it cost-efficient as a whole for MR though...

2. Regeneration/Siege

This we liked, but the fact that it was tied to a movement speed item and a magic resist item was a little weird. It didn't quite seem to click, so tanks that had to itemize regeneration kind of picked up a bunch of stats randomly.

Also, the tri-fecta of Warmogs / Spirit Visage / FoN was actually incredibly hard to get a good sense of balance. Mostly because it turns "on" super-late but mostly because they build on each other a little too much. While we like the build of 'I am unstoppable brick wall of regeneration' - we think that right now it's both really hard to get *and* overpowered when finished and we'd really like to see it be a more viable build that's more in line when it does happen so people feel like they aren't taking long-gambits but more of a choice on how to itemize.

3. Movement Speed

The whole paradigm of X class gets a MS item Y is actually starting to show where the faults are. In order to specialize for movement speed, you have to build into a very specific item - which naturally creates this weird power gap where a class that is perfectly catered by item Y gets MS while every other class pays a gold tax of unwanted stats to get the same mobility. This naturally leads to people wanting more MS/X items for a specific class - which seems to suggest that maybe what people actually want is more ubiquitous movement options that don't consume slots rather than a continuous stream of one-off items with MS% randomly on it.

For example, Lich Bane is the AP item with movement speed on it. That kind of screws every AP caster who doesn't want Lich Bane or can't use it well. This leads to this weird case where randomly, some class of characters get faster just because they can use Lich Bane well. While it's nice to have a few items like this - it's probably a sign as a whole that people want to be able to somehow spend more gold to get mobility rather than they want catered items that have MS on the item.
So tanks are supposed to be slow as fk? Mages and ad carries are supposed to just **** on anyone late game?
For fk sake ironstylus, why would you be so stubborn and remove one of at least a bit special useful items from the league?

The items are already boring and just three, four items are used for every single champion every single game and removing a great counter play item for double ap comps seems very silly and I'm not proud of you.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Warmogs gets FoN's health regen passive, essentially making Warmogs the new Heart of Tarrasque for LoL.

Also Xyph, would making the regen passive higher, but useless in combat alleviate some of the issues?


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IS11d6327cb35cafc124891

Senior Member

11-06-2012

so new fon is gonna be a weaker banshee veil ? I don't understand how fon can be better if you remove it's movement speed and regeneration. Maybe FON will have some hp stats ? even with hp stats it look like ****, malmortius have 400hp shield nice MR and like 75AD in average -.-, so except if fon have 90mr and 700hp it will be uber crâp.


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IS11d6327cb35cafc124891

Senior Member

11-06-2012

singed is now sad ? FON was very good, i don't understand why riot try to fix something that is not broken. it make me so sad. but well it's not new, riot always did this kind of stuff, that's why i don't play a lot this game now, i'm so bored and waste so much time to try to theorycraft each patch.
I prefer to wait some years before the game stabilize, so they don't make critical change...


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COMMISSAR BROCK

Junior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magetooth View Post
It'd actually be very nice if the meta wasn't so based on movement speed right now. Then every new champion wouldn't need a gap closer/movement speed steroid.
This is a lot truer than you know, actually, and one of the reasons WHY a champ like gangplank is still viable. He is actually inherently really tanky, damagy, and fast, so when you take advantage of the one thing he has the just about none of the other champions do- inherently quick speed- and jack it up to crazy levels? You now have a tanky dps who is impossible to catch and you cant escape (thanks to his w and passive, respectively). Things like tri-force and FoN make this possible.


Honestly, while FoN was really strong for the niche item it was (it made certain champions unkillable without them making absolutely elementary mistakes), getting rid of it as well as making movement speed more available to people who need it (read: everyone) is a good, smart move, and will probably make a lot of champions more viable. It just also happens to make gangplank unviable again, taking away the only unique advantage that supported his moreorless average kit.

PS: If mobility weren't the meta in a team based tactical game, it wouldn't be tactical.