Help thread for players, answer by 1800s.

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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyxl View Post
Exc.Ken,

I'm a fairly new player and not even in ELO yet, so maybe this doesn't qualify to get a response,but;

I understand your point of view on Support Champs (in the OP). I fully get, why you'd say that the impact a support has on a game before a certain 'skill level' is less than they would have in higher regions.

That said, everyone in the game, wants to be 'the' APC or ADC. This creates an imbalance, obviously, so what would you suggest the players to do, when you look at it from a broader perspective?

Your advice would work if you would advice players to take up a certain AP/ADC champion in a single player game. Since that is not the case and all spots need to be filled, a support is a 100% mandatory in any level of play. Perhaps you've been in the higher regions of ELO too long, because even where I am, at level 23, we try to devide the playfield in solo top, jungler, solo mid and duo bottom, with one support that doesn't eat CS. And that's simply the core of the game.

Saying you don't need a support in low ELO, suggests that a support doesn't add much to the game, but what you seem to ignore completely is that no single carry can tank a game of 5. None of them can do that. So if you want to have a better shot at winning, you want to conform to how the game is/should be played.

When the ADC wins, the APC also wins, the jungle also wins and the support also wins. If having a support doesn't make you lose more games, which it obviously doesn't, you shouldn't argue that people *should* play an AD or APC to win. Instead, you should say In low ELO,a good carry makes more of a difference, so make sure your best players play ADC or APC. Don't pigeonhole people into one role, when only one person out of 5 can perform that role.

If I'd been you, I would have recommended playing what you feel best at. Because that's what this game is about. Learning a champion, mastering that champion and feeling good about that champion. All other things like experience and winning, will come automatically, no matter what role you play.
Hey Oyxl,

That response was quite a while ago, but even now I truly believe that a kill lane champion is much better off at lower elo compare to the general AD support lane.

Fun fact, back when before the current meta is popular, everyone at higher elo, including Chauster who was interviewed in one of the video, stated that double bruiser will always beat AD+ support lane.

Why is the current meta popular then? You may ask.

As a matter of fact, our current meta is consider the most STABLE and SAFE meta out of all. The evenly split of gold income and the distribution of offensive and defensive role make it really easy for people to pick up and form a team comp. Compare to the old AD mid meta which is a lot more risk and rewarding, and roamer meta which much rely on a strong cc champion to go around the whole map, which often fail if they have no kills or assists.

Now, lets get back to the point, what is support doing that is needed in the current meta

Wards, Aura, and GP10

These 3 things can all be built on different champions, not limiting to the support. In fact, if you open up the gold flow, you can often allow people to get gp10 faster compare to the support. The downside, however, is that the carry will suffer from losing gold early game.

Wards can be evenly bought by everyone, Aura can be built on most bruiser/ jungler and few AP mid, and gp10....pretty sure bruiser, junglers, and even some ap mid can buy them.

My argument, is that even when you don't pick a pure support champion, you can use the support side of it. Sion has a stun. J4 has knock up and armor debuff, as well as armor buff and attack speed aura. These two champions might not consider as a traditional support, but nonetheless they have the ability to support and can both be built with GP10.

So my conclusion is that rather than playing a traditional support, you might be better off to go with a brusier with damage potential.


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Oyxl

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
Hey Oyxl,

That response was quite a while ago, but even now I truly believe that a kill lane champion is much better off at lower elo compare to the general AD support lane.

Fun fact, back when before the current meta is popular, everyone at higher elo, including Chauster who was interviewed in one of the video, stated that double bruiser will always beat AD+ support lane.

Why is the current meta popular then? You may ask.

As a matter of fact, our current meta is consider the most STABLE and SAFE meta out of all. The evenly split of gold income and the distribution of offensive and defensive role make it really easy for people to pick up and form a team comp. Compare to the old AD mid meta which is a lot more risk and rewarding, and roamer meta which much rely on a strong cc champion to go around the whole map, which often fail if they have no kills or assists.

Now, lets get back to the point, what is support doing that is needed in the current meta

Wards, Aura, and GP10

These 3 things can all be built on different champions, not limiting to the support. In fact, if you open up the gold flow, you can often allow people to get gp10 faster compare to the support. The downside, however, is that the carry will suffer from losing gold early game.

Wards can be evenly bought by everyone, Aura can be built on most bruiser/ jungler and few AP mid, and gp10....pretty sure bruiser, junglers, and even some ap mid can buy them.

My argument, is that even when you don't pick a pure support champion, you can use the support side of it. Sion has a stun. J4 has knock up and armor debuff, as well as armor buff and attack speed aura. These two champions might not consider as a traditional support, but nonetheless they have the ability to support and can both be built with GP10.

So my conclusion is that rather than playing a traditional support, you might be better off to go with a brusier with damage potential.
While I start seeing where you are going with this, you made a comparison between carries and supports earlier and that's why I responded, mainly.

I agree that more classes can fill the role of support. But does this include taking part of the CS farm? And how does this work out in end-game? Will both still be viable? Because supports are built around their utility, while champs that generally don't count as support, need to build their strengths. If they start building support with the sole purpose of a single stun, or one or two debuffs, they lose all viability. If they start taking the CS, they effectively nerf two champs at the same time.

So, while I do understand that an additional bruiser at full power, either through farm or kills, will be more effective, doesn't a classic support allow her carry to grow in power more quickly and thus be more dangerous? That's not to say that gp/10 doesn't work on bruisers, but I don't see them becoming viable as support and therefore they will need a form of income through CS/kills.

As I said before, I'm not one to speak of ELO, but I currently build a Lulu with mainly AP and MPEN runes/masteries and support items ingame (mostly CDR + Aura). I pick up Phil.stone (upgraded eventually for CDR) and Kage's (also upgraded to CDR later on) early game and try to avoid CS, but I don't just sit back and "be support". My early game is currently actually quite scary and I've solo topped and solo bottomed with her against certain comps. I've actually killed a few even when they were with two.

What I'm trying to say is, is the idea that a support should sit back and relax and place wards, not slightly outdated? I see a support more as a means of being able to get your carry those early kills. You could say I'm playing Lulu as an AP Mage bruiser early game (although I don't build extreme lots of HP) See; http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/35172588#history I still ward, I still build support, but the early damage output helps me and my carry surprise and take down opponents. I'm still experimenting with summoner spells (took Heal the last few times).


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Sit back and be support is more like the wrong way to play support. Support is there for zoning, sustain, and protection to the carry.

The thing about putting bruiser in the support role is that they often have stronger abilities, both in term of damage and crowd control, at early level, which are generally much better at snowballing the game thus denying the enemy gold and experience. Support tends to outshine brusiers by mid-late game, but that period isn't as important as the early game, especially in solo queue.

Taking CS is fine, but how much they are taking is the problem. Some people pref to speed up their first gp10, and due to the bruiser's ability to outdamage support early game, the early gp10 will tend to pay off and doesn't have as much affect on the AD carry, however, taking anymore farm beyond that will generally be unacceptable.

*Note: Lulu with AP runes and masteries are fine, but you must also understand the lane matchup as some lane is much harder to run that with. For example, against blitzcrank you probably should go standard armor page for more protection.


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RabidLlama1

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

What would you say the best supports are to go with MF? I've been maining her lately, and I'm just a hair away from getting to 1500. People often ask what support I'd like, but my game knowledge isn't really all that great, and I'm sure you would better know what's optimal. Also, any suggestion for playing against Draven as MF? He always seems to beat me, more so than any other ADC. And last question: what matchups should I avoid as MF if the two players are equally skilled?


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The Ice Empress

Member

11-06-2012

Hi there! I was wondering if working on unorthodox supports is a good idea. My friends despise the concept of me playing something crazy like support Ashe or Orianna, when I have practiced them to the point of competency. Should I just focus on Traditional ones? I know experiment leads to some cool things though, like the support Zyra and Lux that appear many a time in pro matches...


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Oyxl

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
Sit back and be support is more like the wrong way to play support. Support is there for zoning, sustain, and protection to the carry.

The thing about putting bruiser in the support role is that they often have stronger abilities, both in term of damage and crowd control, at early level, which are generally much better at snowballing the game thus denying the enemy gold and experience. Support tends to outshine brusiers by mid-late game, but that period isn't as important as the early game, especially in solo queue.

Taking CS is fine, but how much they are taking is the problem. Some people pref to speed up their first gp10, and due to the bruiser's ability to outdamage support early game, the early gp10 will tend to pay off and doesn't have as much affect on the AD carry, however, taking anymore farm beyond that will generally be unacceptable.

*Note: Lulu with AP runes and masteries are fine, but you must also understand the lane matchup as some lane is much harder to run that with. For example, against blitzcrank you probably should go standard armor page for more protection.
I'm focussing a lot on support right now, which is due to the nature of this 'debate', but I'm not just going into this, because I'm some sort of support fanboy or anything, just wanted to get that out.

Which (Bruiser) support brings more to the table than a Lulu?
- A speed boost
- A slow
- A polymorph
- A Shield
- A game changing Ult. It counters Nunu Ult, It counters Fiddle Ult (ok this one I'm not sure about), it counters basically all ults that require a small period of time to cast. It's instant, no cast animation, no travel time. It's a free HP boost with a knock-up that can literally change the flow of a teamfight if well placed.

How many Bruisers can testify to have this many active support skills? And how many of those bruisers have a short enough cooldown to be of use more than once each teamfight? I truly wonder.


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidLlama1 View Post
What would you say the best supports are to go with MF? I've been maining her lately, and I'm just a hair away from getting to 1500. People often ask what support I'd like, but my game knowledge isn't really all that great, and I'm sure you would better know what's optimal. Also, any suggestion for playing against Draven as MF? He always seems to beat me, more so than any other ADC. And last question: what matchups should I avoid as MF if the two players are equally skilled?
Taric, Lulu, Sona are all very strong due to their cc or damage potential.


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ice Empress View Post
Hi there! I was wondering if working on unorthodox supports is a good idea. My friends despise the concept of me playing something crazy like support Ashe or Orianna, when I have practiced them to the point of competency. Should I just focus on Traditional ones? I know experiment leads to some cool things though, like the support Zyra and Lux that appear many a time in pro matches...
Playing new support is fine, just to remember your reason to choose that support. For example, if you are going with support Ashe, are you really able to go aggressive at level 6 with that arrow and beyond that?


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyxl View Post
I'm focussing a lot on support right now, which is due to the nature of this 'debate', but I'm not just going into this, because I'm some sort of support fanboy or anything, just wanted to get that out.

Which (Bruiser) support brings more to the table than a Lulu?
- A speed boost
- A slow
- A polymorph
- A Shield
- A game changing Ult. It counters Nunu Ult, It counters Fiddle Ult (ok this one I'm not sure about), it counters basically all ults that require a small period of time to cast. It's instant, no cast animation, no travel time. It's a free HP boost with a knock-up that can literally change the flow of a teamfight if well placed.

How many Bruisers can testify to have this many active support skills? And how many of those bruisers have a short enough cooldown to be of use more than once each teamfight? I truly wonder.
Alright, I think you are off on the idea.

Lets say if you have Nunu support, he only has a movement and as buff and movement as debuff. but that doesn't make him a bad support because bottom lane is hugely affected by both stats.

Lulu, on the other hand, has way more potential (she probably has the most potential out of all support anyway, except the lack of sustain).

Now, if you really want me to say, I will say Lee Sin support is stronger during early game. He can reduce the person's movement and attack speed just like Nunu, he has a shield for both players and can often jump on wards or minions for a surprise engage, Q does decent amount of damage and ultimate can counter most AoE ultimate.

Now if you do a comparison between them, obviously Lulu is more of a real support type. Her ultimate will also give HP and a slow on the target, which is definitely strong in any situation. However, you can't ignore the fact that Lee's ultimate can also be used to kick away scary bruiser such as Jax, or kick away AoE ultimate such as Fiddle, Kennen and more, these champions will generally not be stop by a Lulu ultimate.

As for other bruiser, you can also think about J4. Passive armor aura just like Taric, but he also has attack speed aura. His level 2 knock up combine with his passive can create a lot of trouble to the enemy, especially before the sustain is up for Soraka, Taric, Sona. (Soraka's cooldown compare the heal is insanely low, Taric's heal will split into two guys, and Sona's heal mana cost is stupidly high for the amount healed)


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lol intel lol

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Junior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
1. Cho and Garen are both strong tops. They both have really strong laning abilities. However, outside of laning, Garen falls of really hard, and the sustain from chogath's passive is often wasted

2. Jax and Olaf are always safe picks for lategame, due to their ability to do damage and reduce enemy damage.

3. Darius is counter by 3 factors.
a. Sustain, out sustain him as he doesn't have build in sustain
b. Escape. Darius doesn't have escape and is really easy to get killed in a gank
c. Range. Darius is a melee bruiser. Even though he got a pull, if you take advantage of his cooldown, you can often harass hard with ranged ability.

4. Usually as early as possible. A roaming top brusier can create a lot of trouble on mid turret and pressure dragon.

5. You play Garen when you know you can snowball early game, for example, if you see the enemy picking Olaf, most of the time you can win early game, but will definitely lose late game.

6. Boot is usually better, and you can get mana from last hitting creeps.

7. Chogath, much more.
first, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, i have some more questions:

1. With cho, is it ok going with teleport and flash?

2. with garen, when should i buy ad items and when should i buy health?

3. if im winning my lane with garen, should i keep pushing so that the enemy top cant farm or should i gank other lanes?

4. with garen, should i use flash or ghost, and exhaust or ignite?