Mooglet's on Dominion

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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
What could also happen is that these changes push a few more champs into viability, and that's what's more important. The gap between viable AP champs and nonviable AP champs is pretty big right now, and it speaks a ton about the health of APs when you can potentially ban out most of them and leave mostly conditionals and unviables left. It's reminiscent of when there weren't many support champs, and you could ban out most of them in SR and pick the one you really want for yourself--granted, this wasn't a good strategy on SR, but Dominion's picks are slightly more compartmentalized and power-centric than SR's.
I honestly can't see it changing the dynamic of "viable" APs.
Many of the weaker ranged APs in Dominion are that way because they both don't do enough damage and don't have enough utility to justify their low/average damage.

However, there's a large enough variety of APs at a competitive level that it's impossible to ban out a ranged AP player like myself, even with 5 available bans, and there are still a few ranged APs that I need to add to my repertoire.

As much as I would like it, I honestly can't see BFT making something like Ziggs or Anivia competitively viable in higher level Dominion play.
It'll just make the already strong champs like Brand and Rumble even stronger.


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Nyx87

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Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
I honestly can't see it changing the dynamic of "viable" APs.
Many of the weaker ranged APs in Dominion are that way because they both don't do enough damage and don't have enough utility to justify their low/average damage.

However, there's a large enough variety of APs at a competitive level that it's impossible to ban out a ranged AP player like myself, even with 5 available bans, and there are still a few ranged APs that I need to add to my repertoire.

As much as I would like it, I honestly can't see BFT making something like Ziggs or Anivia competitively viable in higher level Dominion play.
It'll just make the already strong champs like Brand and Rumble even stronger.
I disagree. Many of the Ranged AP's are weak because proper itemization is too costly for them or there just isn't proper itemization. A lot of them use blue buff as a crutch for both CDR and Mana regen on SR, and while Unholy Grail does a decent job of replacing that, it still gimps their damage output because they are investing in defensive items along side offense on Dom. It's pretty evident that a majority of the mages are dependant on Blue buff to function 100%, most just get by.

Also, there are like 5 or 6 top lane Mages that are competitive that aren't permabanned: Brand, Ryze, Zyra, Fizz, Swain and Kat. Out of all of these, only Fizz has different build paths. Brand/Zyra go Sweeper/Rylais/Voidstaff, Ryze flips a coin between RoA and Odyns, Swain goes RoA+tank, and Kat builds Tripen+tank.

I also would like to say, let the item be released to see if it is actually broken on certain champs, then change it as needed. If anything it will show what some of the weaker mages need to be up to par.


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ShawNuff

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11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
I disagree. Many of the Ranged AP's are weak because proper itemization is too costly for them or there just isn't proper itemization. A lot of them use blue buff as a crutch for both CDR and Mana regen on SR, and while Unholy Grail does a decent job of replacing that, it still gimps their damage output because they are investing in defensive items along side offense on Dom. It's pretty evident that a majority of the mages are dependant on Blue buff to function 100%, most just get by.

Also, there are like 5 or 6 top lane Mages that are competitive that aren't permabanned: Brand, Ryze, Zyra, Fizz, Swain and Kat. Out of all of these, only Fizz has different build paths. Brand/Zyra go Sweeper/Rylais/Voidstaff, Ryze flips a coin between RoA and Odyns, Swain goes RoA+tank, and Kat builds Tripen+tank.

I also would like to say, let the item be released to see if it is actually broken on certain champs, then change it as needed. If anything it will show what some of the weaker mages need to be up to par.
FYI, in MLG nearly every game had 1 or more of Athene's cups of mana


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Nyx, the items we're getting won't do anything to make stuff like Ziggs, Heimer, Fiddles, or Kennen more viable than they already are.

Seriously, think about the mages we DON'T use, and ask yourself "will BFT/Witchcap/insert new item make them viable?"
The answer to all of them is "no".

It doesn't matter whether its because they're too weak to compete or something else does their job way better, the fact is none of the "NU" mages of Dom will be brought into competitive viability with just item tweaks.
They need direct buffs or kit reworks.

The only thing I can see Blackfire Torch or Mooglets doing is upping the power of already strong mages even further, and that is a completely unnecessary thing.


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urmamasllama

Senior Member

11-05-2012

haif lets test them out and see before making any firm conclusions


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Ryzol Ryzo Ryz R

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I posted a breakdown of the charge mechanic... somewhere. There's no tracking of charges on the target. Let's say there's 25 charges on BFT. Caster uses 4 second DoT on target.
Second 1: 1 charge expended, DoT burns for 1 second. BFT burns for 1 second.
Second 2: 1 charge expended, DoT burns for 1 second. BFT burns for 1 second.
Second 3: 1 charge expended, DoT burns for 1 second. BFT burns for 1 second.
Second 4: 1 charge expended, DoT burns for 1 second. BFT burns for 1 second.
Second 5: 1 charge expended. BFT burns for 1 second.
Second 6: 1 charge expended. BFT burns for 1 second.

A 4 second DoT will burn 6 charges (because the final second of damage application will renew the 3 second BFT for the last time).
Is there a cap on the number of charges stored? Do charges get stored while dead? Can the item be toggled off to avoid using charges?


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Ehh, we don't have those items yet, but I can make educated guesses based on the champions numbers and my personal experiences with them.

Blackfire Torch won't suddenly make extremely weak champions like Anivia and Morganna competitively viable.
And if it does, then that item is seriously overpowered and needs to be removed, because of what it would be doing on actually useful champions.


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Nyx87

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11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
Ehh, we don't have those items yet, but I can make educated guesses based on the champions numbers and my personal experiences with them.

Blackfire Torch won't suddenly make extremely weak champions like Anivia and Morganna competitively viable.
And if it does, then that item is seriously overpowered and needs to be removed, because of what it would be doing on actually useful champions.
BFT might not, but the new Mooglet's helps Vlad, Karthus, Zyra, Fiddle, and Morgana.

Fixes cannot happen without change, sometimes you must break something further to repair it.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Vlad will probably remain as weak as ever due to his mechanics. He just doesn't put out enough damage fast enough, has too short range considering how squishy he is, and practically kills himself with his own spells.
Also healing reduction aura screws him over.

Morgana: low burst, abysmal dps, medium utility, high cooldowns, and extremely ult dependent, which is very bad considering her ult is on a very long cooldown.
Yeah, I know about Zhonyas+ult. No, I don't care. It takes more than that to make something competitively viable. SR is only able to use her because of her retardedly safe laning phase.

Karthus..... maybe. I dunno, though.
He just doesn't seem to do enough damage fast enough when he can't get a massive gold and level advantage on things.
He also has low/mediocre utility, and no burst.

Wtf why are you grouping Zyra in with those unviables? You crazy, crazy man, Nyx.


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ShawNuff

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11-05-2012

Isn't easier access to AP going to help the AP champs that scale with ratios more than base damage/spell pen?