Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
The quote of mine in which you initially used already states that I've played far more than the games mentioned. Now you're just trying to nitpick, as I've stated it multiple times now.
First... Moose, imo we are not going at it. You are very much allowed your own opinion. I just see things from one vantage (play time) vs hearing, believing thinking numbers. See even through the numbers we... most of us have different play styles so a certain champion fits or doesn't fit us.

Now to the fun stuff... I never meant to suggest you don't play, you said you play a lot and play various modes, maps, champions etc. but the point is you don't play Sejuani by your own words. Sejuani is the topic and balance comes from SR not Dominion, not TT, not Proving Grounds... ARAM, ARAB, all Zeals etc.

Quote:
I thoroughly disprove this point quite a bit later in this post. I hope you actually take time to fully read and understand it, because you seem to have been ignoring sections of what I have been pointing out to you.
Sorry confused. You disprove snare is soft CC?



Quote:
Yes, her issues are apparent and you've done me the favor of collecting all the information with your "experience", thanks. I'll explain how all of your pointed out weaknesses make her ineffective
In the words of Sponge Bob "I'm ready!"

Quote:
1. The fastest Champions in the game, Master Yi, and Pantheon, both have escape mechanisms. Yi becomes immune to slows, which limits Sejuani to 1 means of hoping to stop him. Pantheon, however, can litterally jump halfway accross the map, or jump onto another hostile to escape. That being said, how will you catch either of these champions when they both have escape mechanisms? Also, how will you hope to initially catch them when Sejuani has to get so close to apply her passive. The problem is how the passive is applied, which is why I liked the other person's idea so much.
Let's add Twisted Fate, Olaf and Shen to the list. Even if they are not the fastest they can immune or jump away. (jump is used loosely) Answer at times you don't but these champions can avoid more than just Sejuani. Let's just say it is a Sejuani only issue though. You are suggesting that because of less than 5% of champions can evade her the passive needs fixing? I think its nice some can to be honest. Then again Shen is almost always banned and Yi is rarely picked, Pantheon too, really all I see a lot of is Olaf.

Quote:
2. Yes, this is a problem. When you attack, you stop moving, which in turn makes it easier for the slowed targets to escape. Hence, a stronger slow will prevent this.
But, it also blurs the line of early ranks in E and does nothing to aid in other areas Sejuani is deficient in. A simple removal on the champion collision on Q will also make it harder for enemy champions to escape and force them to run through W instead of away from it. Now from your 5% problem champions which is more disruptive to them? Which would be more damaging to them? Remember now being in front of them they must also path around Sejuani.

Quote:
3.Yes, this is true as well. This is a reason I proposed that she has a small, possibly .15, or .2 second knock up, which will allow her to move forward and take advantage of the enemy even further. There is nothing counter productive about this at all, it all improves the champion. Your inability to accept change is blinding from seeing this.
Sejuani can't have this much disruption to enemy champions. You are asking for a Perma ban. The removal of the champion collision stop already solves moving forward. One small change instead of 2 fixed the situation.

Quote:
4. This mark IS affected by tenacity, which greatly reduces its (in)effectiveness.
Woot... we agree!

Quote:
5. "Sejuani needs zero mitigation again its the brilliance in her kit most can't see. It in itself makes her an attractive target" Explain this so called "brilliance". All i see is you saying "nope, nope, nope" without explaining.
I thought I explained this already. And its in the cry of the masses that don't play her. Everyone believes she blows up, she melts, she is the only tank without a sustain and she needs one right? So she gets focused as a tank because the impression is she... blows up and melts. I can't make it any clearer than that. She is the only tank that gets focused by the masses. Its brilliant. Now imagine the champion collision is removed and she can penetrate to the AD carry or mage! Now she completes the tank check list with flying colors. One change.

Quote:
All in all, here, you took my point all the way home. Sejuani needs change, because what she does now is innefective.
Arrggg... she is getting a change and I hope its just the collision removal on Q. Imo is solves every Sejuani issue except the totally brilliant blow up myth.


Quote:
Once again, you're supporting my suggestions by implying that a knock up would be productive. As for your "Mobile tank" comment, every other tank has a more impressive gap closer, and most have more damage soaking ability built into their kit. If you have facts to support the assertion, please provide them. Otherwise, this statement is quite useless. Also, before I forget, I address the "blowing up" issue later.
I said it would be better than a knock back. It still equals instance ban. Not a place I want my favorite champion. No other tank has a more impressive gap closer besides Shens Ulti. They are all skill shots. See most of the time players say her Ulti sucks because its a skill shot then say other tanks skill shot gap closers are superior. Way weird.



Quote:
You are right, lets not forget the rest of the aforementioned Champion's kits. I'll include that now.

At level one, Shyvana's Burnout provides a 30% movement speed increase, which is increased to 50% at level 5. this nullifies out the insignificant 25 unit difference between the AoE abilities. Advantage: Maintained

Dr. Mundo's Burning agony is quite the small AoE compared Sejuani's, at only half the size. However, the skill possesses the CC reduction that Sejuani does not have, while at the same time being able to be active indefinitely. The Madman of Zaun also has a 40% slow which can allow him to close the gap to have this ability actually damage the desired target. Also, The Doctor's ultimate ability provides a hefty movement speed buff to allow him to close said gap even faster. This will allow him to almost certainly stay in range of his Burning Agony when combined with the reduction from the skill itself. Advantage: Maintained

Amumu's Despair is also a bit smaller than Sejuani's Northern Winds. However, since he has 2 skills which stop enemies in their tracks, it's quite easy for him to maintain range. This section isn't required to be as long because that's all there is to it. Avantage: Maintainied

In synopsis, 350 units of range is not as game impacting as you are led to believe when compared to the other AoE ranges, as the other Champion's kit allow them to maintain the difference in range with minimal player effort. Also, yes, the frost bonus is applied when calculating all of Sejuani's damage
Nooo the rest of the kit none of the others can disrupt like Sejuani. None of them can put 4 seconds of cc on multiple enemies.. Sejuani isn't supposed to lead in single target damage, she leads in disrupting multiple targets... larger radius more likely target she can hit. You are to focused on damage and mitigation which is why imo you don't understand Sejuani and why I choose stop removal on Q and you want 8,542 changes. (Tee hee exaggeration)

Quote:
I'll inform you again that I have played many more than the games provided. However, this is not the point. All of the information given to you (sans my own proposals, of course) is 100% factual and can be found in the game files, as well as online in the Wiki. If you disagree with any of this information, then you are simply in denial
Of course you have. You don't get to level 30 in 5 games. I do believe even though you have hundreds or thousands of games you are still truthful in the fact that you only played 3 normals and a few bot games with Sejuani.



Quote:
See, I don't think you recognize what "facts" are. Here, let me Google that for you.

1: a thing done: as
a obsolete : feat
b : crime <accessory after the fact>
c archaic : action

2: archaic : performance, doing

3: the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
4
a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact>
b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>

5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
__________________________________________________ _____
What you may be confused with, is a "theory". Dont feel too bad about that, its a rookie mistake, everybody does it. But just for logging purposes I'll give ya that definition too. This one's on the house


1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

2: abstract thought : speculation

3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4
a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn>
b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>

5: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
6
a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation
b : an unproved assumption : conjecture
c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
__________________________________________________ _____
Given these definitions, It's quite clear to see that quite a few of your "facts" lack the evidence needed to sustain their validity. I'll do my best clean each of them up for you, if only to improve upon your ideas

1. Factual. Nothing needs to be done
2. "Sejuani isnt as squishy as an AD carry but alongside champions that are actually comparable to her *ex. Naut, Amumu, Leona, Dr. Mundo*, she lacks the one thing they all have in common: tankiness built directly into her kit." FTFY
3. "Sejuani has 4 seconds of CC on one target, while the rest are Controlled for 3. The only other champions that can Control for a minimum of the former duration (regardless of hard or soft CC): Cassiopeia, Cho'Gath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Gangplank, Graves, Janna, Lee Sin, Lux, Malphite, Morgana, Nautilus, Nunu, Rumble, Singed, Teemo, Trundle, Varus, Zilean, Zyra*. Although it is true that seven of these champions possess no form of "hard" Crowd Control, the duration is what was taken into consideration when constructing the list." FTFY
*:Honorable mention: Amumu, Blitzcrank, Skarner, Viktor, Volibear
4. "Sejuani has a light slow, this brings even the fastest champion's base movement speed to her level, provided she can initially apply her passive." FTFY
5."I choose not to make use of an online database to provide factual information. Personal experience and various scenarios are more than enough to dispute actual numbers and confirmed statistics." (Hard to bring a personal statement into but I fleshed out what you intended with the initial quote) FTFY

This is as far as I will go on this regard, as "facts" 6 and 7 are merely attempts to dispute what is already known as factual.
OK... first Kog is still the only champ that explodes. Still a fact.

Second... blah, blah, blah dictionary, thesaurus etc.

Third you won't allow CC to be CC for some reason. I don't know why.

See by changing definitions you can change the facts... kind of like Pluto. Sejuani is the only champion outside of Cho that can CC multiple enemies for 4 seconds straight not 3 but 4.

OK Edit: Her light slow does not bring the fastest champion to her speed. 330-10%(33)=297<315 not 297=315. You seem to be facting like this a lot.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
I just noticed, I wasnt even dignified with a RESPONSE to my giant wall of information on page 3. My assumption is either your stumped, or your just rude... :\
Or am working and need more time than the other posts.

Much like your Sejuani assumption... wrong! (Imo)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mooseville

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
You quoted a dictionary.

Your post didn't deserve a response.

Maybe if you actually had the decency not to treat another person like a fool, the person you're arguing with would actually pay attention to you.
I gave a valid dictionary definition to get my point across. Also, in my opinion, I presented myself in the most frank and professional manner as possible. No need in sugar coating anything that I needed to say. I do apologize if I did come off as a D-bag though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TalimStripper View Post
I really just don't want her buffed. I'm sooo worried about her becoming one of those characters people ban because she's this and that. I enjoy her how she is. She does her job well. I play ranked with her mostly and I never do too bad.

I mean I would understand a small stat boost. A SMALL one. Besides for that I love her and everything she does. My vote is with Raviance on this one. He understands Sejuani as much, if not more, as even myself and I use her EVERYTIME I play LoL.
If she gets the Buff Bat to the point that she transitions to ban status, wouldn't she get nerfed down to a midpoint between her theoretical OP stature and what she is now? There's nothing wrong with a bit of trial and error to find a comfortable position. You just have to be confident (also hopeful) that whatever we end up with would be an improvement overall.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
The win rate gives a testament to the effectiveness of the champion's skill kit. As of 10/28, Sejuani was sitting at a 48.86% rate, while you're sitting at 50% even. providing a 1% margin for error you're still keeping in line with the statistic, while staying slightly ahead of the curve.
And the 35-30 outside of placement?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalimStripper View Post
I really just don't want her buffed. I'm sooo worried about her becoming one of those characters people ban because she's this and that. I enjoy her how she is. She does her job well. I play ranked with her mostly and I never do too bad.

I mean I would understand a small stat boost. A SMALL one. Besides for that I love her and everything she does. My vote is with Raviance on this one. He understands Sejuani as much, if not more, as even myself and I use her EVERYTIME I play LoL.
Ty. She is getting some adjustments according to Riot..."soon"


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
The win rate gives a testament to the effectiveness of the champion's skill kit. As of 10/28, Sejuani was sitting at a 48.86% rate, while you're sitting at 50% even. providing a 1% margin for error you're still keeping in line with the statistic, while staying slightly ahead of the curve.
Not necessarily. Look at the mass cries! Sustain! Sustain! Damage! Damage!

First most players are set on a mmorpg stereotypical tank which results in failure. Second many players are focused on K/D ratio as a mark of being good. How many posts do you see that are like "I was 56-0 and we lost!"

Sejuani fits neither of those player types ans suffers because of it.

As for the percentage I addressed it earlier.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mrs Heimerdinger

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
Ty. She is getting some adjustments according to Riot..."soon"
We all know soon means 2 years later. BTW, i'm adding you so I can see how your Sej does. Anything to get better!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalimStripper View Post
We all know soon means 2 years later. BTW, i'm adding you so I can see how your Sej does. Anything to get better!
Sure np I play around 2-5am eastern.

But my style may not fit yours remember. Its like players trying to copy pros you still need to fit your play style.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TealNinje

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
I gave a valid dictionary definition to get my point across. Also, in my opinion, I presented myself in the most frank and professional manner as possible. No need in sugar coating anything that I needed to say. I do apologize if I did come off as a D-bag though.
Quoting a dictionary = assuming the other person doesn't know the definition = insinuating that they are illiterate.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mooseville

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
First... Moose, imo we are not going at it. You are very much allowed your own opinion. I just see things from one vantage (play time) vs hearing, believing thinking numbers. See even through the numbers we... most of us have different play styles so a certain champion fits or doesn't fit us.

Now to the fun stuff... I never meant to suggest you don't play, you said you play a lot and play various modes, maps, champions etc. but the point is you don't play Sejuani by your own words. Sejuani is the topic and balance comes from SR not Dominion, not TT, not Proving Grounds... ARAM, ARAB, all Zeals etc.



Sorry confused. You disprove snare is soft CC?





In the words of Sponge Bob "I'm ready!"



Let's add Twisted Fate, Olaf and Shen to the list. Even if they are not the fastest they can immune or jump away. (jump is used loosely) Answer at times you don't but these champions can avoid more than just Sejuani. Let's just say it is a Sejuani only issue though. You are suggesting that because of less than 5% of champions can evade her the passive needs fixing? I think its nice some can to be honest. Then again Shen is almost always banned and Yi is rarely picked, Pantheon too, really all I see a lot of is Olaf.



But, it also blurs the line of early ranks in E and does nothing to aid in other areas Sejuani is deficient in. A simple removal on the champion collision on Q will also make it harder for enemy champions to escape and force them to run through W instead of away from it. Now from your 5% problem champions which is more disruptive to them? Which would be more damaging to them? Remember now being in front of them they must also path around Sejuani.



Sejuani can't have this much disruption to enemy champions. You are asking for a Perma ban. The removal of the champion collision stop already solves moving forward. One small change instead of 2 fixed the situation.



Woot... we agree!



I thought I explained this already. And its in the cry of the masses that don't play her. Everyone believes she blows up, she melts, she is the only tank without a sustain and she needs one right? So she gets focused as a tank because the impression is she... blows up and melts. I can't make it any clearer than that. She is the only tank that gets focused by the masses. Its brilliant. Now imagine the champion collision is removed and she can penetrate to the AD carry or mage! Now she completes the tank check list with flying colors. One change.



Arrggg... she is getting a change and I hope its just the collision removal on Q. Imo is solves every Sejuani issue except the totally brilliant blow up myth.




I said it would be better than a knock back. It still equals instance ban. Not a place I want my favorite champion. No other tank has a more impressive gap closer besides Shens Ulti. They are all skill shots. See most of the time players say her Ulti sucks because its a skill shot then say other tanks skill shot gap closers are superior. Way weird.





Nooo the rest of the kit none of the others can disrupt like Sejuani. None of them can put 4 seconds of cc on multiple enemies.. Sejuani isn't supposed to lead in single target damage, she leads in disrupting multiple targets... larger radius more likely target she can hit. You are to focused on damage and mitigation which is why imo you don't understand Sejuani and why I choose stop removal on Q and you want 8,542 changes. (Tee hee exaggeration)



Of course you have. You don't get to level 30 in 5 games. I do believe even though you have hundreds or thousands of games you are still truthful in the fact that you only played 3 normals and a few bot games with Sejuani.





OK... first Kog is still the only champ that explodes. Still a fact.

Second... blah, blah, blah dictionary, thesaurus etc.

Third you won't allow CC to be CC for some reason. I don't know why.

See by changing definitions you can change the facts... kind of like Pluto. Sejuani is the only champion outside of Cho that can CC multiple enemies for 4 seconds straight not 3 but 4.

I was impatient. I find it challenging to bump heads with people on our differing opinions, and I find it enjoyable when I can thoroughly prove my point with as many valid facts as possible. It's not only a mindset of a debater, but also an extreme competitiveness that I adopt when I get into this sort of thing.

But I digress, I read through this entire post expecting some more refutable info. But, the further I went into it, the more I saw that there is a large possibility that we're not on the same page. Outside of my own opinions on what exactly should be done, I provided leagues of statistics and comparative information to complement anything I may have said. But, as I reread this for the second time, I only see you refusing to acknowledge whatever I present to you. All I can do is hang my head in frustration, as my message is in one ear, and out of the other.

But, just because it bothers me........One last time, I'm gonna show you something. That list of champion names, was a list of every single champion in League of Legends that can CC for a minimum of 4 seconds. What I will now do, is fine tune that list, to be even more specific. This new list will be "Champions that can CC multiple targets for a minimum of 4 seconds, while also having a minimum of one form of hard CC". So, without further ado:

Cho'Gath, Cassiopeia, Galio, Lee Sin, Morgana, Nautilus, Sejuani, Zyra

There, I only did this because I couldnt leave well enough alone.