Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
I've played her more than a total of 3 times, i only provided that sample group because once you play a few bot games to get used to the champ, not many normals are needed after that to develop an opinion
Three times and a few bot games... Your opinion is yours and nothing is wrong with it. I don't think even the addition of a few bot games is enough added with three games to understand what you can do or not do. I just think its much to early to call for well thought out changes.


Quote:
Her ult is only 2 seconds on the target struck, the other targets in the aoe are stunned for 1 second. Also, when talking about CC on multiple targets, it would be wise to not count soft cc, because enemies can still react while slowed in a teamfight. Now, I'm not saying that a slow like that on her E wouldn't help your carry get away a little easier, but on most targets, it's not a huge game changer like a stun, root, or knock up/back.
Wise? Uhh... you count root as a hard cc? A snare or root is a soft CC! So talking about CC I am just talking about CC because that is what I meant. Unless you just want to not count Curse of the sad mummy when talking about CC, because the enemy can still react?! Still no other champ lays CC for as long as Sejuani except Cho and its a much tighter and closer fit.


Quote:
Ok, her passive works for her abilities, we all know that. But, once again, the passive itself is incredibly weak. I really like what the one guy said about her passive being applied upon being attacked, that would make it incredibly easy to spread it to enemies. Slow is widely known as the "worst" cc, but at the same time, it is readily available to most champs. This is why I see no problem in increasing the slow. The minion damage mitigation is to give Sejuani's kit some sort of tanky quality, as she doesn't really have any at the moment
Her passive is not incredibly weak. First the mark gets affected by tenacity and this is a real issue. Second 330-10% is less than 315 the reduction is fine. The issue is 1) the stop attack eats into the effectiveness of the slow and 2) she can't get in front of her target because of collision stops on her abilities. 3) her mark is affected by tenacity. Sejuani needs zero mitigation again its the brilliance in her kit most can't see. It in itself makes her an attractive target.

Quote:
What does her kit offer that prevents her from blowing up? This is the point that I've been trying to make. Knocking an enemy up/back a small height a-la-Riven really wouldn't be counter productive, it could only improve disruption ability, as those types of crowd control aren't reducible by tenacity. Saying that a character classified as a "tank" does not need sustain is just silly, I want you to go ahead and rescind that comment about inexperience right now because that's more than a simple misreading of text, that's a lack of game knowledge.
Gonna type this slow.. she.. does... not... blow... up! A knock back is counter productive to her short range ability and her passive. How do you apply frost if you knock them away? How effective is W if you knock them away? Knock up, would be OK but its to much for her kit.

You want me to rescind a comment? No, sustain is not the only way to mitigate damage. Mobility and stealth do too. Sejuani is the mobile tank, keep her that way. Mobility is her mitigation.


Quote:
Ok, gonna break this one down for ya. Incoming TL: DR


Sejuani's Northern Winds deals 18(+1.5% Sej's max health)(+.15 AP) per second at level one, after 5 seconds, you'll end up with 90(+7.5% of Sej's max health)(+.75 AP) before mitigation (when empowered). At level 5 this skill will deal 66(+3%)(+.15 AP) for a total of 330(+15%)(+.75 AP) before mitigation (when empowered). Let's keep these numbers on file for all comparison purposes.

Shyvana's Burnout deals 25 (.2 bAD) damage per second at level one, for a total of 7 seconds, maxing at 175 (+ 1.40 bAD). At level 5, this skill deals 85(.2 bAD) dps for a max of 595(+1.40 bAD). provided these numbers we're clearly able to see that not only is the base damage on Shyvana's AoE ability higher, but she also has a more readily available damage source from which to scale the bonus damage from. I say this because there are plenty more items that offer the Attack Damage stat while also offering varying degrees of "tanky" stats as well (Wriggles Lantern, Hexdrinker, and Phage come to mind instantly). Advantage (Early: Shyvana) (Late: Tie)

Dr. Mundo's Burning Agony deals 35(+.2 AP) at level one, capping out at 95(.2 AP). We all know building Ability Power on Dr. Mundo would be full pants on head herp a derp, but I listed the ratio to be thorough. Dr. Mundo's ability is a toggle ability, so, while Sejuani beats him out in raw DPS (at higher levels, mundo beats her by a long shot at level one), Dr. Mundo has the edge of being able to keep his ability on for an indefinite amount of time, due to his innate regeneration ability. Dr. Mundo also has the benefit of being granted CC reduction while this skill is active (one of those "tanky" aspects Sejuani is lacking), so it's lower damage is also complimented by this. Advantage: Dr. Mundo

Amumu's Despair deals 8(+1.5% enemies max hp (+.01 AP)) damage per second at level one, ending at 24(+1.5% enemies max hp (+.01 AP)) per second. As with Dr. Mundo, Amumu's AoE ability is a toggle type, and while it may deal less damage, it has the ability to be kept active for a far longer period of time. The base damage on this ability isn't what makes it truly fearsome. The percentile damage that it deals excels at chopping down even the tankiest of targets when combined with Amumu's passive, which reduces Magic Resistance by a flat 35 a max tank. Advantage: (Early: Sejuani) (After 25 mins: Amumu)

As you can see, All of the other non-ultimate point blank aoe aura abilities outclass Sejuani. She may be doing something right here, but the wrongs far outweigh those, and that's why I believe this should be corrected.

Oh, and before I forget. I did all of these comparisons at a ballpark average of 3100 hp for Sejuani, which would add a total of 93 damage per second to her W ability
Northern Winds 350 units
Despair 300 units
Burning Agony 175 units
Burn Out 325 units

Early, late, mid. Advantage Sejuani

Let's not forget the rest of the kit while balancing one ability also... hmm you going to add frost bonus or did I miss it? Is empowered some wiki term for when frost is applied? Oh wait what?? Yea you are right about tanky AD items.... its hard for Sejuani to find tanky health items...

Quote:
Simple misread on the wiki, you aren't the first to call me out on it, however all of my previous points still stand.
See you are using wiki to debate how a champion functions in game that and a few bot games and 3 PvP. Its unfair to those of us that play Sejuani a lot that you claim she blows up and can't do this or that.

Quote:
I'm not ranked because I don't really play ranked games too often. I do however have literally thousands of normal games under my belt, and have played a variety of champions, roles, and game modes. Let's not let that discussion divert our attention from the issue at hand, however. Everything you mentioned is just as mine was, an opinion. However, you provided nothing to flesh out any of your statements. Come to me with hard numbers and facts before you want to talk again, bud.
Bud? I come to you with Sejuani experience. Facts? I laid out facts you diissed them.

Fact: Any champion can be built tanky or glass canon the abilities they possess modify this.
Fact: Sejuani does not blow up. Kog 'Maw does.
Fact: No other champion can lay down 4 seconds of cc on multiple targets at the range Sejuani can and only Cho can.... oh wait silence is a soft CC...
Fact: the fastest champ 330ms is slower than Sejuani 315 with 10% frost applied.
Fact: I don't need wiki to help me spew numbers I have Sejuani experience.
Fact: Add me and I'll be your Sejuani and show you what she can do.
Fact: I ain't scared to put up, you play your position and I'll run Sejuani jungle if you can blame the game on me your wiki beats my experience.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-29-2012

... there isn't any need to worry about that at this point--se'ni certainly could benefit from iteration, but i don't see the need (or desire) to completely change her kit.

as someone else mentioned, when we look at a champion that likely needs more than a small number adjustment, it's really important to us that we preserve the 'core' of what makes that champion enjoyable/endearing to those that actively play them...assuming that the core is a healthy fit for league of legends and its players as a whole. se'ni is a champion that i feel is neither toxic nor unloved, so her current fans should enjoy any kit iterations as much (if not more) as they enjoy her kit now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
*but I'd love to get a Rioter's opinion onwhat any of them believe to be a proper fix
That's from Rickless, so I hope not much changes at all


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pomagrante

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by raviance View Post
fact: I ain't scared to put up, you play your position and i'll run sejuani jungle if you can blame the game on me your wiki beats my experience.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh h what the **** is with all the warmogs why are you arguing this


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pomagrante View Post
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh h what the **** is with all the warmogs why are you arguing this
Debating. Arguing belongs with statements that include asterisks.

Why what's your opinion on Sejuani?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

intro94

Member

10-30-2012

i will just tell you this, a few games are enough to give you an overview of a champion, and an opinion. But is it the right opinion ?are you playing the champion the same way a player of 100 games will?her mobility through terrain to initiate give her many ,many choices for veteran players. Some champions are more suited for more strategical mindsets. Also, her damage is at least a threat, something Leona or the new Malphite cant claim. Since she scales damage with Health, and you have loads of health items as a tank(from heart of gold to sunfire-which synergises brilliantly), she will finnish of quickly squishies if needed.

You need to play more with her or just stop playing with her. Shes really strong.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beija

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Sejuani has became such a hot-topic of October. :O

I still believe she's awful.

RIOT please fix.

*Woosh*


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arcticfury

Senior Member

10-30-2012

The majority seem to think she lacks, a few believe she is fine. Well the few, if you are reading, play her ten times in a row, preferably ranked, and then post your link. Let's see you're awesome score. I've asked in other threads. Anyone that has said she was good or that they played her in a great streak and then has had their links posted shows a horrible record. Best was 5 wins out of 9 games, the rest were worse.

So, if she's so great, quit talking that you're experience is better than ours, because it's not, prove it and post your record. Let's see some games boys and girls, let's see you show us that she rocks. No custom or bot games, normal or ranked, preferably ranked.

It won't happen. No matter how good you are, she's not good enough to keep up.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beija

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
Snip
Someone already mentioned that Sejuani is seen as UP because "no one plays her".

That is a really ignorant claim.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/sej...ked#statistics

She sits at a 49% winrate while virtually never being picked in Ranked. If her lack of play-ability was true; the people that are playing her should have her winrate no lower than 55% due to only "die-hard" fans of the champ playing her. I digress however.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/sej...mal#statistics

This chart makes A LOT more sense towards the claim since only die-hard fans of Sejuani would ever dare to play her here. Sitting at 55% in normal; one can say that only players who knows Sejuani dares to take her there.

However, using only normal is a baseless claim as Blind Picks are portrayed more on luck than skill.

Tl;DR: A die-hard Sejuani pwning normals is a much easier task than a Sejuani playing the meta.

Learn the difference


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
The majority seem to think she lacks, a few believe she is fine. Well the few, if you are reading, play her ten times in a row, preferably ranked, and then post your link. Let's see you're awesome score. I've asked in other threads. Anyone that has said she was good or that they played her in a great streak and then has had their links posted shows a horrible record. Best was 5 wins out of 9 games, the rest were worse.

So, if she's so great, quit talking that you're experience is better than ours, because it's not, prove it and post your record. Let's see some games boys and girls, let's see you show us that she rocks. No custom or bot games, normal or ranked, preferably ranked.

It won't happen. No matter how good you are, she's not good enough to keep up.
She is getting changed, Riot has said this. She is closer to fine than she isn't though. See the problem is you are asking to post her as a carry or hyper carry, she isn't. Posting a link is silly too because we can all lolking.

The other thing already admitted by Riot is she
Quote:
is an effective and rewarding champion when she's played by someone that knows her very well, is on a coordinated team, and isn't behind. her ability to contribute to her team in a meaningful way drops significantly when any of those areas aren't up to par, and the sejuani player can miss out on a lot of valuable learning time once things have gone sour.
A majority don't even know what Sejuani is. Let's be honest if you are calling for sustain because she blows up.... oh wait I have 74 ranked games with Sejuani
178/265/682 or in another format 2.2/3.6/9.2. That's anything but blowing up. I also recorded my last 30 normal games 98/72/296... no blowing up in normals either.

Its not that she is fine or isn't its the direction she should be taken in. If you are calling for the changes the majority are and you are posting on a smurf... yea no. if you arecalling for the changes the majority are and you don't even know her abilities... yea no. She is played in 1% of games, how do so many know what she needs? They just follow what they read.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mooseville

Senior Member

10-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
Three times and a few bot games... Your opinion is yours and nothing is wrong with it. I don't think even the addition of a few bot games is enough added with three games to understand what you can do or not do. I just think its much to early to call for well thought out changes.
The quote of mine in which you initially used already states that I've played far more than the games mentioned. Now you're just trying to nitpick, as I've stated it multiple times now.


Quote:
Wise? Uhh... you count root as a hard cc? A snare or root is a soft CC! So talking about CC I am just talking about CC because that is what I meant. Unless you just want to not count Curse of the sad mummy when talking about CC, because the enemy can still react?! Still no other champ lays CC for as long as Sejuani except Cho and its a much tighter and closer fit.
I thoroughly disprove this point quite a bit later in this post. I hope you actually take time to fully read and understand it, because you seem to have been ignoring sections of what I have been pointing out to you.


Quote:
Her passive is not incredibly weak. First the mark gets affected by tenacity and this is a real issue. Second 330-10% is less than 315 the reduction is fine. The issue is 1) the stop attack eats into the effectiveness of the slow and 2) she can't get in front of her target because of collision stops on her abilities. 3) her mark is affected by tenacity. Sejuani needs zero mitigation again its the brilliance in her kit most can't see. It in itself makes her an attractive target.
Yes, her issues are apparent and you've done me the favor of collecting all the information with your "experience", thanks. I'll explain how all of your pointed out weaknesses make her ineffective
1. The fastest Champions in the game, Master Yi, and Pantheon, both have escape mechanisms. Yi becomes immune to slows, which limits Sejuani to 1 means of hoping to stop him. Pantheon, however, can litterally jump halfway accross the map, or jump onto another hostile to escape. That being said, how will you catch either of these champions when they both have escape mechanisms? Also, how will you hope to initially catch them when Sejuani has to get so close to apply her passive. The problem is how the passive is applied, which is why I liked the other person's idea so much.
2. Yes, this is a problem. When you attack, you stop moving, which in turn makes it easier for the slowed targets to escape. Hence, a stronger slow will prevent this.
3.Yes, this is true as well. This is a reason I proposed that she has a small, possibly .15, or .2 second knock up, which will allow her to move forward and take advantage of the enemy even further. There is nothing counter productive about this at all, it all improves the champion. Your inability to accept change is blinding from seeing this.
4. This mark IS affected by tenacity, which greatly reduces its (in)effectiveness.
5. "Sejuani needs zero mitigation again its the brilliance in her kit most can't see. It in itself makes her an attractive target" Explain this so called "brilliance". All i see is you saying "nope, nope, nope" without explaining.

All in all, here, you took my point all the way home. Sejuani needs change, because what she does now is innefective.

Quote:
Gonna type this slow.. she.. does... not... blow... up! A knock back is counter productive to her short range ability and her passive. How do you apply frost if you knock them away? How effective is W if you knock them away? Knock up, would be OK but its to much for her kit.

You want me to rescind a comment? No, sustain is not the only way to mitigate damage. Mobility and stealth do too. Sejuani is the mobile tank, keep her that way. Mobility is her mitigation.
Once again, you're supporting my suggestions by implying that a knock up would be productive. As for your "Mobile tank" comment, every other tank has a more impressive gap closer, and most have more damage soaking ability built into their kit. If you have facts to support the assertion, please provide them. Otherwise, this statement is quite useless. Also, before I forget, I address the "blowing up" issue later.


Quote:
Northern Winds 350 units
Despair 300 units
Burning Agony 175 units
Burn Out 325 units

Early, late, mid. Advantage Sejuani

Let's not forget the rest of the kit while balancing one ability also... hmm you going to add frost bonus or did I miss it? Is empowered some wiki term for when frost is applied? Oh wait what?? Yea you are right about tanky AD items.... its hard for Sejuani to find tanky health items...
You are right, lets not forget the rest of the aforementioned Champion's kits. I'll include that now.

At level one, Shyvana's Burnout provides a 30% movement speed increase, which is increased to 50% at level 5. this nullifies out the insignificant 25 unit difference between the AoE abilities. Advantage: Maintained

Dr. Mundo's Burning agony is quite the small AoE compared Sejuani's, at only half the size. However, the skill possesses the CC reduction that Sejuani does not have, while at the same time being able to be active indefinitely. The Madman of Zaun also has a 40% slow which can allow him to close the gap to have this ability actually damage the desired target. Also, The Doctor's ultimate ability provides a hefty movement speed buff to allow him to close said gap even faster. This will allow him to almost certainly stay in range of his Burning Agony when combined with the reduction from the skill itself. Advantage: Maintained

Amumu's Despair is also a bit smaller than Sejuani's Northern Winds. However, since he has 2 skills which stop enemies in their tracks, it's quite easy for him to maintain range. This section isn't required to be as long because that's all there is to it. Avantage: Maintainied

In synopsis, 350 units of range is not as game impacting as you are led to believe when compared to the other AoE ranges, as the other Champion's kit allow them to maintain the difference in range with minimal player effort. Also, yes, the frost bonus is applied when calculating all of Sejuani's damage


Quote:
See you are using wiki to debate how a champion functions in game that and a few bot games and 3 PvP. Its unfair to those of us that play Sejuani a lot that you claim she blows up and can't do this or that.
I'll inform you again that I have played many more than the games provided. However, this is not the point. All of the information given to you (sans my own proposals, of course) is 100% factual and can be found in the game files, as well as online in the Wiki. If you disagree with any of this information, then you are simply in denial


Quote:
Fact: Any champion can be built tanky or glass canon the abilities they possess modify this.
Fact: Sejuani does not blow up. Kog 'Maw does.
Fact: No other champion can lay down 4 seconds of cc on multiple targets at the range Sejuani can and only Cho can.... oh wait silence is a soft CC...
Fact: the fastest champ 330ms is slower than Sejuani 315 with 10% frost applied.
Fact: I don't need wiki to help me spew numbers I have Sejuani experience.
Fact: Add me and I'll be your Sejuani and show you what she can do.
Fact: I ain't scared to put up, you play your position and I'll run Sejuani jungle if you can blame the game on me your wiki beats my experience.
See, I don't think you recognize what "facts" are. Here, let me Google that for you.

1: a thing done: as
a obsolete : feat
b : crime <accessory after the fact>
c archaic : action

2: archaic : performance, doing

3: the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
4
a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact>
b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>

5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
__________________________________________________ _____
What you may be confused with, is a "theory". Dont feel too bad about that, its a rookie mistake, everybody does it. But just for logging purposes I'll give ya that definition too. This one's on the house


1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

2: abstract thought : speculation

3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4
a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn>
b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>

5: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
6
a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation
b : an unproved assumption : conjecture
c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
__________________________________________________ _____
Given these definitions, It's quite clear to see that quite a few of your "facts" lack the evidence needed to sustain their validity. I'll do my best clean each of them up for you, if only to improve upon your ideas

1. Factual. Nothing needs to be done
2. "Sejuani isnt as squishy as an AD carry but alongside champions that are actually comparable to her *ex. Naut, Amumu, Leona, Dr. Mundo*, she lacks the one thing they all have in common: tankiness built directly into her kit." FTFY
3. "Sejuani has 4 seconds of CC on one target, while the rest are Controlled for 3. The only other champions that can Control for a minimum of the former duration (regardless of hard or soft CC): Cassiopeia, Cho'Gath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Gangplank, Graves, Janna, Lee Sin, Lux, Malphite, Morgana, Nautilus, Nunu, Rumble, Singed, Teemo, Trundle, Varus, Zilean, Zyra*. Although it is true that seven of these champions possess no form of "hard" Crowd Control, the duration is what was taken into consideration when constructing the list." FTFY
*:Honorable mention: Amumu, Blitzcrank, Skarner, Viktor, Volibear
4. "Sejuani has a light slow, this brings even the fastest champion's base movement speed to her level, provided she can initially apply her passive." FTFY
5."I choose not to make use of an online database to provide factual information. Personal experience and various scenarios are more than enough to dispute actual numbers and confirmed statistics." (Hard to bring a personal statement into but I fleshed out what you intended with the initial quote) FTFY

This is as far as I will go on this regard, as "facts" 6 and 7 are merely attempts to dispute what is already known as factual.