Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

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Mrs Heimerdinger

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
I've actually owned Sej since she's first been released, she's just been so underwhelming that I neglected to play her until a few days ago. In my first 3 games as her, I played her in the jungle, as apparently thats the only way to play her. So I've come to the opinion that she's a mess. Her ult is fantastic, but that's about it. Her early clears leave much to be desired and even though she's in the "CC tank" category that Naut, Mumu, and Leona are in, she doesn't do it anywhere near ad well as either of them. I came up with what's (in my opinion) a modest fix to a majority of her problems

Frost: Sej's passive is only decent on it's own for chasing. to improve that, i recommend the slow increase at levels 6/11/16, capping at 25%. To improve Sej's pathetic jungle survivability, I also think that creeps and neutral monsters afflicted with frost should deal 20% less damage. Of course, to avoid being broken, Baron and Dragon would be immune to this

Arctic Assault: Sej's charge, while being a cool gap closer and escape ability, is pretty underwhelming when it comes down it. To repair this, I suggest, firstly, that the hitbox be widened to the width of Sej's boar. Second, the charge should apply in a small knock-back/up similar to Riven's Broken Wings AoE. Lastly, a shield should be applied on activation, Sejuani has no real sustainability, and this would fix this known problem. All of these proposed changes would give charging into a fight a much stronger purpose. These changes would also justify the skill having a ridiculously long cooldown

Northern Winds: The Aoe skill is used primarily for clearing jungle camps and it honestly doesn't do that very well. I suggest the base damage be improved by 10 at all ranks and the empowerment be improved to 75% over 50%. That would allow much faster jungle clears while not being considered overpowered.

Permafrost: One look at this skill, and you instantly know that it isn't actually used for the damage. This is supposed to give Sej's passive purpose, its a moderate slow that turns massive at later levels. while it does its job well, i feel that the range is incredibly lacking at a measly 350. Increasing this to 800 would allow Sej to secure kills for her team by catching fleeing enemy champions.

Glacial Prison: I can say this is the one thing that needs absolutely no change at all, it does everything that Sej needs in a team fight. I love what it is right now.

I disagree with all of this. First. If Sejuani were to be buffed she would be overpowered. She's one of the only characters that is actually balanced. She does her job fine, in fact, better if you really think about it. She has a 2 second stun into a 70% slow and it's all AoE. Permafrost is not a "measly 350" It's a full blown 1000. If anyone within 1000 range has frost she can permafrost them. Nothing is wrong with her at all. Just play her properly, build her properly, and stop trying to make one of the only balanced characters overpowered.


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Mooseville

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalimStripper View Post
I disagree with all of this. First. If Sejuani were to be buffed she would be overpowered. She's one of the only characters that is actually balanced. She does her job fine, in fact, better if you really think about it. She has a 2 second stun into a 70% slow and it's all AoE. Permafrost is not a "measly 350" It's a full blown 1000. If anyone within 1000 range has frost she can permafrost them. Nothing is wrong with her at all. Just play her properly, build her properly, and stop trying to make one of the only balanced characters overpowered.

Now that I look again, I had my numbers mixed up on the ranges. The 350 is the range on her W is 350, not her E, thanks for pointing out the typo.

But onto my rebuttal. I know her stun is good, that's why I insisted that it didn't really need anything done to it, If you had taken the time to read a bit more you would've noticed as much. But lets be real for a sec, her ratios are perfectly fine. The skills themselves are what need work, and I think a good size of the community agrees with me (judging on how many threads we have asking for changes, this included).


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Mrs Heimerdinger

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
Now that I look again, I had my numbers mixed up on the ranges. The 350 is the range on her W is 350, not her E, thanks for pointing out the typo.

But onto my rebuttal. I know her stun is good, that's why I insisted that it didn't really need anything done to it, If you had taken the time to read a bit more you would've noticed as much. But lets be real for a sec, her ratios are perfectly fine. The skills themselves are what need work, and I think a good size of the community agrees with me (judging on how many threads we have asking for changes, this included).
True. I just don't think they need THAT much of a change. Late game once I a have 2 or 3 of my items, I'm usually unstoppable. Her W is just a means of making you annoying. True, the damage isn't much to fear but no one really knows that. It still has the potential to add up to tons of damage if you stick to your target and do what Sej does best. I honestly think that if she were buffed in anyway she would start to be overpowered. She does a great job. Her ganks are unparalleled. She gets in there, slows the living hell out of them, wacks em with the mace, and is letting her W damage do it's thing.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
I've actually owned Sej since she's first been released, she's just been so underwhelming that I neglected to play her until a few days ago. In my first 3 games as her, I played her in the jungle, as apparently thats the only way to play her. So I've come to the opinion that she's a mess.
I have played her top and support and its not that bad.Then again she isn't that bad in the jungle either. I find it sad that 3 games is all it takes to determine a champ is a mess now days.


Quote:
Her ult is fantastic, but that's about it. Her early clears leave much to be desired and even though she's in the "CC tank" category that Naut, Mumu, and Leona are in, she doesn't do it anywhere near ad well as either of them. I came up with what's (in my opinion) a modest fix to a majority of her problems
Her clears are fine. Is she an Udyr? No she is not but you shouldn't have any trouble keeping pace. As a CC tank she can lay down four seconds of CC on multiple targets. None of the champs you listed can do that so I wouldn't say she can't cc as well as them, she just does it different.

Quote:
Frost: Sej's passive is only decent on it's own for chasing. to improve that, i recommend the slow increase at levels 6/11/16, capping at 25%. To improve Sej's pathetic jungle survivability, I also think that creeps and neutral monsters afflicted with frost should deal 20% less damage. Of course, to avoid being broken, Baron and Dragon would be immune to this
Sej has a passive that works for two other of her abilities. Increased damage on W and conversion for E. Its not decent for chasing only. Sej does not have a pathetic jungle survival. I am constantly selling back pots if I Cloth*5 or I just run a Dorans shield.

Quote:
Arctic Assault: Sej's charge, while being a cool gap closer and escape ability, is pretty underwhelming when it comes down it. To repair this, I suggest, firstly, that the hitbox be widened to the width of Sej's boar. Second, the charge should apply in a small knock-back/up similar to Riven's Broken Wings AoE. Lastly, a shield should be applied on activation, Sejuani has no real sustainability, and this would fix this known problem. All of these proposed changes would give charging into a fight a much stronger purpose. These changes would also justify the skill having a ridiculously long cooldown
its just a gap closer for closing gaps the fact that it stops on collision makes it not so cool. The hit box is already crazy, try dashing out of a team fight. I think a knock back would be counter productive... so now you dash to catch up and you knock your enemy away and make it easier for the enemy to get out of W. Lastly Sej does not need sustain! Its the entire brilliance of her kit. She does not blow up...

Quote:
Northern Winds: The Aoe skill is used primarily for clearing jungle camps and it honestly doesn't do that very well. I suggest the base damage be improved by 10 at all ranks and the empowerment be improved to 75% over 50%. That would allow much faster jungle clears while not being considered overpowered.
What jungle clears are you doing? I don't even know where to begin... you do know about the frost damage buff right?

Quote:
Permafrost: One look at this skill, and you instantly know that it isn't actually used for the damage. This is supposed to give Sej's passive purpose, its a moderate slow that turns massive at later levels. while it does its job well, i feel that the range is incredibly lacking at a measly 350. Increasing this to 800 would allow Sej to secure kills for her team by catching fleeing enemy champions.
Here you lack of experience really shows. 350 is W range not E range. Its range is 1000 units.
Not that you are doing anything wrong because everyone is allowed an opinion but all these calls of sustain and changes for a champ only a few of us play is FRUSTRATING. No games, 3 games not even ranked and plop, another call for this and that. I hope Riot listens to none of you in this case.

Quote:
Glacial Prison: I can say this is the one thing that needs absolutely no change at all, it does everything that Sej needs in a team fight. I love what it is right now.
Except it can be totally wrecked by simple positioning.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

10-29-2012

I don't think Sejuani needs much, but she does need small tweaks. She isn't a game changer unless it's for the negative. She can't burn anyone down, she gets one burst lock down for 1-2 secs and a slow in a team fight, but then she doesn't do much. She has small damage and no damage soak. So while she has some cool moves, that's all she has, nothing more. Amumu has more defense and more damage, and with the exception of Leona, they all seem to be a little to a lot better than Sejuani.

She won't be OP with more damage or defense, unless Riot goes way overboard.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
I don't think Sejuani needs much, but she does need small tweaks. She isn't a game changer unless it's for the negative. She can't burn anyone down, she gets one burst lock down for 1-2 secs and a slow in a team fight, but then she doesn't do much. She has small damage and no damage soak. So while she has some cool moves, that's all she has, nothing more. Amumu has more defense and more damage, and with the exception of Leona, they all seem to be a little to a lot better than Sejuani.

She won't be OP with more damage or defense, unless Riot goes way overboard.
Ha... The way I say it is Sejuani adds nothing to the teams effectiveness she multiplies it. Sadly if your team or a champ is zero effective, well multiplied... its still zero.

In her defense though burning isn't what she was made for. She does more cc on multiple enemies better. I think they over valued R imo. If it was 2 seconds on all enemies it would be scary or 2 and 1.5. R isn't the ultra ult that everyone says it is imo.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

10-29-2012

08-06-2012
Morello is going to have live drop us another update on Sej again!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello
I'm a million miles away from that one right now. I'll ask live to speak up since I really don't know.


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Mooseville

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
I have played her top and support and its not that bad.Then again she isn't that bad in the jungle either. I find it sad that 3 games is all it takes to determine a champ is a mess now days.
I've played her more than a total of 3 times, i only provided that sample group because once you play a few bot games to get used to the champ, not many normals are needed after that to develop an opinion


Quote:
Her clears are fine. Is she an Udyr? No she is not but you shouldn't have any trouble keeping pace. As a CC tank she can lay down four seconds of CC on multiple targets. None of the champs you listed can do that so I wouldn't say she can't cc as well as them, she just does it different.
Her ult is only 2 seconds on the target struck, the other targets in the aoe are stunned for 1 second. Also, when talking about CC on multiple targets, it would be wise to not count soft cc, because enemies can still react while slowed in a teamfight. Now, I'm not saying that a slow like that on her E wouldn't help your carry get away a little easier, but on most targets, it's not a huge game changer like a stun, root, or knock up/back.

Quote:
Sej has a passive that works for two other of her abilities. Increased damage on W and conversion for E. Its not decent for chasing only. Sej does not have a pathetic jungle survival. I am constantly selling back pots if I Cloth*5 or I just run a Dorans shield.
Ok, her passive works for her abilities, we all know that. But, once again, the passive itself is incredibly weak. I really like what the one guy said about her passive being applied upon being attacked, that would make it incredibly easy to spread it to enemies. Slow is widely known as the "worst" cc, but at the same time, it is readily available to most champs. This is why I see no problem in increasing the slow. The minion damage mitigation is to give Sejuani's kit some sort of tanky quality, as she doesn't really have any at the moment

Quote:
its just a gap closer for closing gaps the fact that it stops on collision makes it not so cool. The hit box is already crazy, try dashing out of a team fight. I think a knock back would be counter productive... so now you dash to catch up and you knock your enemy away and make it easier for the enemy to get out of W. Lastly Sej does not need sustain! Its the entire brilliance of her kit. She does not blow up...
What does her kit offer that prevents her from blowing up? This is the point that I've been trying to make. Knocking an enemy up/back a small height a-la-Riven really wouldn't be counter productive, it could only improve disruption ability, as those types of crowd control aren't reducible by tenacity. Saying that a character classified as a "tank" does not need sustain is just silly, I want you to go ahead and rescind that comment about inexperience right now because that's more than a simple misreading of text, that's a lack of game knowledge.

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What jungle clears are you doing? I don't even know where to begin... you do know about the frost damage buff right?
Ok, gonna break this one down for ya. Incoming TL: DR


Sejuani's Northern Winds deals 18(+1.5% Sej's max health)(+.15 AP) per second at level one, after 5 seconds, you'll end up with 90(+7.5% of Sej's max health)(+.75 AP) before mitigation (when empowered). At level 5 this skill will deal 66(+3%)(+.15 AP) for a total of 330(+15%)(+.75 AP) before mitigation (when empowered). Let's keep these numbers on file for all comparison purposes.

Shyvana's Burnout deals 25 (.2 bAD) damage per second at level one, for a total of 7 seconds, maxing at 175 (+ 1.40 bAD). At level 5, this skill deals 85(.2 bAD) dps for a max of 595(+1.40 bAD). provided these numbers we're clearly able to see that not only is the base damage on Shyvana's AoE ability higher, but she also has a more readily available damage source from which to scale the bonus damage from. I say this because there are plenty more items that offer the Attack Damage stat while also offering varying degrees of "tanky" stats as well (Wriggles Lantern, Hexdrinker, and Phage come to mind instantly). Advantage (Early: Shyvana) (Late: Tie)

Dr. Mundo's Burning Agony deals 35(+.2 AP) at level one, capping out at 95(.2 AP). We all know building Ability Power on Dr. Mundo would be full pants on head herp a derp, but I listed the ratio to be thorough. Dr. Mundo's ability is a toggle ability, so, while Sejuani beats him out in raw DPS (at higher levels, mundo beats her by a long shot at level one), Dr. Mundo has the edge of being able to keep his ability on for an indefinite amount of time, due to his innate regeneration ability. Dr. Mundo also has the benefit of being granted CC reduction while this skill is active (one of those "tanky" aspects Sejuani is lacking), so it's lower damage is also complimented by this. Advantage: Dr. Mundo

Amumu's Despair deals 8(+1.5% enemies max hp (+.01 AP)) damage per second at level one, ending at 24(+1.5% enemies max hp (+.01 AP)) per second. As with Dr. Mundo, Amumu's AoE ability is a toggle type, and while it may deal less damage, it has the ability to be kept active for a far longer period of time. The base damage on this ability isn't what makes it truly fearsome. The percentile damage that it deals excels at chopping down even the tankiest of targets when combined with Amumu's passive, which reduces Magic Resistance by a flat 35 a max tank. Advantage: (Early: Sejuani) (After 25 mins: Amumu)

As you can see, All of the other non-ultimate point blank aoe aura abilities outclass Sejuani. She may be doing something right here, but the wrongs far outweigh those, and that's why I believe this should be corrected.

Oh, and before I forget. I did all of these comparisons at a ballpark average of 3100 hp for Sejuani, which would add a total of 93 damage per second to her W ability

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Here you lack of experience really shows. 350 is W range not E range. Its range is 1000 units.
Simple misread on the wiki, you aren't the first to call me out on it, however all of my previous points still stand.

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Not that you are doing anything wrong because everyone is allowed an opinion but all these calls of sustain and changes for a champ only a few of us play is FRUSTRATING. No games, 3 games not even ranked and plop, another call for this and that. I hope Riot listens to none of you in this case.
I'm not ranked because I don't really play ranked games too often. I do however have literally thousands of normal games under my belt, and have played a variety of champions, roles, and game modes. Let's not let that discussion divert our attention from the issue at hand, however. Everything you mentioned is just as mine was, an opinion. However, you provided nothing to flesh out any of your statements. Come to me with hard numbers and facts before you want to talk again, bud.


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Dildo Duelist

Senior Member

10-29-2012

i like all of your ideas but all to gether theywould make her too good. i support he base damage increase o nthewins, i suport range increase on her permafrost, but not 800, maybe to 500

i think her bas movespeed should be raised by 5 personally


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Mooseville

Senior Member

10-29-2012

I'd appreciate it if anyone stopping by could toss an upvote to my original comment. I know it may not do much, but I'd love to get a Rioter's opinion on my proposal and what any of them believe to be a proper fix


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