Elise, a viable top laner

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TySRT4

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Oh, she actually does quite well with her AP ratios. They may look low on her abilities, but as many have pointed out in multiple threads, Elise gets much of her damage in spider form from her spiderlings. They happen to deal 10/20/30/40 base damage plus 10% of your ability power. By sticking to AD, you essentially lower a large chunk of your damage. That makes Spider form with two abilities that scale off of AP. Q for lunges plus damage, then add in the W steroid for AS on you and your spiderlings that are scaling off of your AP. In Human form, while her Q doesn't have the longest range, it has a quick cast animation and works like a mini Deathfire Grasp.

Also, with her Spider's W, she really doesn't need to much, if any added AS, as with it maxed out, it gives her 3 seconds of +140% AS every 12 seconds. Compare this to something like Master Yi's ultimate which gives him 12 seconds of +80% when maxed, but has a 75 second cool down. She has plenty of AS.

Elise's Spider form's abilities also do not cost any mana. As well as her R in both Human and Spider form. This along with the relatively low cost of mana to cast her Human form's Q, you can just spam that all day and not have to worry about mana.

This combo, Human Q, R, Spider Q, W, E, R, Human E, Q, W

Very potent. Damage at range as a Human, Spider in, Rappel to runners and swap back for a stun right away and attack for more.

Also, no one seems to have mentioned her cooldowns. Unlike other champions, while her cooldowns look long, her spider and human forms cooldowns are separate. That encourages you to swap often (which is simple with a 4 sec cooldown on your R at lvl 1) as you can burn your spells quickly in human form, swap, burn your spells in spider form, swap back again and your human spells are either coming off cooldown or already ready for use.

Start a game with Q and you have insane damage even at level 1. As you can Q in human, swap to spider and instantly Q again.

Most of my friends actually find her overpowered because of this.

Looking at items, I personally build:
Mercury's Treads
Rod of Ages
Rylai's Crystal Cepter
Abyssal Scepter
Frozen Heart
Zhonya's Hourglass

This gives her a lot of Health, MR, and Armor. Along with the needed AP for her Q, W and spiderlings. Two auras (a MR and AS reducing one), and her Rappel combined with Zhonya's gives her 4 seconds in which the enemy cannot hurt her.

If the enemy team doesn't have much for AD, they swap the Zhonya's Hourglass with a Lich Bane as it synergizes well with her Spider for some nice added burst damage.

(Though of course, I mainly use Elise in both Mid and Top. This build also works for jungle mainly because of her spiderlings and W's sustain).

*edit
If you take the time to do a bit of math, let's say you do manage to build all six of the items I listed. This give's you 330 AP from 4 of the items. Since she has a .02 scaling on her Q, that gives her 6.6% added. That with her starting 8 is 14.6% damage off their current health in human form plus the spell's base damage. Or 14.6% extra damage based off of their missing health in spider form with added base damage of the spell.

Looking at those numbers, that's can be quite a chunk of damage, especially with being able to cast the spell so often. Now it only relies on your skill to hit the enemy champions with skill shots.

**edit
Continuing where I left off. Let's actually do some numbers. Say you actually manage to farm up the 15970 gold to make all 6 of the items listed above. This would give you 330 AP.

At 330 AP, Elise's Q at level 5 has a base damage of 230. With an added base of 8% and the 6.6% given from the 330 AP, give's you a 14.6% added damage (based of enemies current HP in Human Form, or missing HP in Spider Form). Now let's look at the actual damage (enemy MR and your Pen not taken into consideration):
Enemy Current/Missing HP => % damage + Base => Total
.........................................500..=>.. ......7 3......+ 230....=> 303
.......................................1000..=>... ....146 .....+ 230....=> 376
.......................................1500..=>... ....219 .....+ 230....=> 449
.......................................2000..=>... ....292 .....+ 230....=> 522
.......................................2500..=>... ....365 .....+ 230....=> 595
.......................................3000..=>... ....438 .....+ 230....=> 668

Now of course this is just the Q. Most agree that the Human form's W does decent damage, so I won't get into that, but what about that Spider's Damage? I listed above how nice an AS steroid this is. But what about for an AP user? That doesn't affect the speed of the skill without AD, no? Well, of course AD helps, but actually takes away from that oh so good AP. Here is how AP helps this skill:

- In Spider form, when you auto-attack, you do a bonus magic damage on top of it that scales with AP bye .2 (or 20%). With my 330 AP, that's 66 bonus magic damage.
- In Spider form, you summon spiderlings. With your Ultimate maxed at level 4, you have 5 spiderlings with a base damage of 40. Spiderlings do not benefit from your AD at all. Nothing, AD only helps you. Spiderlings scale off of your AP by .1 (or 10%), which would give you 33 bonus damage added to their 40 (granted again you have my 330 AP), giving you 77 physical damage per spiderling. 77x5 is 365 damage. Without that AP, you essentially reduce your spiderlings effectiveness by half (well, almost).
- The heal is small, but really helps. It has a base of 4 HP healed per attack that either her or her spiderlings deal. That's 6 attacks with you and 5 spiderlings. This 4 HP heal base is increased by .04 ( or 4%) of your AP. 330 would give you 13.2 added to 4 for 17.2. That by 6 is 103.2 HP healed with each attack for those next 3 sec, added to the AS increase, that is a lot of HP if you attack for the entire duration.

With all that in mind, your Spider form's W gives you and your spiderlings, that have increased damage by your AP, a 140% attack speed boost for 3 seconds that you can use every 12 (without CD reductions). That sounds like a great big amount of hurt.

It has also been brought to my attention that I missed an important part of Rappel. I forgot to mention that while suspended in the air for those 2 seconds, you gain "complete" vision in the circle radius where you can descend. By "complete", I mean not only is your vision increased to the entirety of the skills radius, but you also can see in brush and stealthed units (such as Eve, Teemo, Rengar, Kha'Zix, etc.) It also grants you vision over walls so that you can see monster camps in the jungle. That is probably the most important part. Rappel has an escape. While you cannot jump to an ally champion or ally minion, you can jump to enemy champions, enemy minions, and neutral monsters. Even over walls. So if your Rappel is ready, you can, if being chased through the jungle, go up and drop over a wall to an neutral monster camp. Or even try to be tricky by going up, wait a moment to see if they run off or wait for you to drop. If they wait, go over the wall to the camp, if they start running to it, just drop back down and juke away.


Of course my build above is not perfect. It more focuses on survivability with a hint of AP and Aura's. If you can decide on what to replace for a Deathcap, you could increase the numbers listed above by a large amount. Also, a Lich Bane could work very well on Elise with all of her Spider form's abilities as you auto attack in rapid succession after using each (of course could also help with Human forms poke). I don't know about using the Deathcap (as in what to replace for it), but I am really interested in trying to figure out what to replace for a Lich Bane.




A friendly analysis from,
- Kat





***edit
Yay for more information. This time on Attack Speed.

As people (well most) know, Cooldown Reduction caps at at hard 40%. Well, not many people know that Attack Speed had a hard cap too.

AS caps at 2.5 attacks per second (or 2500 AS).

Elise has a base of .625 attacks per second. With a maxed W, this increases her AS to 1.5 attacks per second (.625 x 2.4 = 1.5).

To get Elise to the cap, you would need a +300% attack speed total (.625 x 4 = 2.5). 140% of that comes from her W. So the most you would want from items would be 160%.

From a build below:
Nashors (50%), Berserker Greaves (25%), Ionic Spark (50%), and Madred's (40%) gives you a total of 165%. This brings you nicely to that AS cap, but he would like to add a Rageblade as well. Normally this would give 4% AS per attack up to 8 stacks for 32% more AS. However this is now wasted while using W, and only helps when W is on cooldown.

Of course building AS like above completely bypasses everything I said above on AP as you are now building AD (which again of course you're perfectly able to do, I just don't believe it is optimal).




****edit
Why not, I'll add in the numbers for Human form's W, Volatile Spiderling.

With a decent base damage of 275 at level 5 with nice scaling of .8 (or 80%). This AoE attack can hurt.

Using the 330 AP from my build again, that is a 539 magic damage AoE nuke. Of course you half this damage down to it's base 275 if you go AD, cutting your effectiveness of the spell.

The Volatile Spiderling, while blows up on first contact, or after 3 seconds (giving some players grief of hitting a minion over a champion). Instead of casting the Volatile Spiderling straight at an enemy champion that is behind minions, cast it off to the side. The Volatile Spiderling actually homes onto a target withing a small radius around it when it reaches the end of its path allowing for some fun curve shots around minions to hit that champion.

The Volatile Spiderling also grants a small vision radius around it before it explodes allowing you to check bushes.



*****edit
Here is the same chart for Q above, but with the base 8% (as if you had 0 AP, since you build AD only, instead of the 14.6% used in the chart above).

Enemy Current/Missing HP => % damage + Base => Total
..........................................500..=>. .......40 ......+ 230....=> 270 (303 above for comparison)
........................................1000..=>.. ......80 ......+ 230....=> 310 (376)
........................................1500..=>.. .....120 .....+ 230....=> 350 (449)
........................................2000..=>.. .....160 .....+ 230....=> 390 (522)
........................................2500..=>.. .....200 .....+ 230....=> 430 (595)
........................................3000..=>.. .....240 .....+ 230....=> 470 (668)



******edit
Wow, my sixth edit =^.^=

Ah well, here is some more theory builds.
Let's take three builds (well okay, the last build will be an extension on the second).

1st (the survivability build from above)...........2nd (only 5 items)..................................3rd (Nashor's Tooth added to 2nd if you can farm enough gold)
Rod of Ages.............................................. .........Rylai's Crystal Scepter............................Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Mercury Treads............................................ ......Malady...................................... ................Malady
Rylai's Crystal Scepter.......................................Merc ury Treads......................................Mercur y Treads
Abyssal Scepter........................................... ......Rabadon's Deathcap.............................Rabadon's Deathcap
Frozen Heart............................................. .........Lich Bane.............................................. ...Lich Bane
Zhonya's Hourglass......................................... .................................................. .................Nashor's Tooth

Now let's look at cost and stats between the three. Listed below are stats that change because of the items. Therefore stats that do not change from Elise's base are not listed. Also, what is listed is the totals, not what they are adding for when you are level 18. They also do not account for Spider Form's bonus 10 MS, 25 Armor/MR, and bonus Magic Damage from auto-attacks in the DPS. So you can add that bit on your own. These numbers also do not account for Aura's and Abilities (on items like Lich Bane).

..........................................Set 1..............Set 2..............Set 3
Cost.................................16165........ ....13200...........16085
Health...............................2965......... .....2335.............2335
Armor.................................235.65...... ...86.65............86.65
Magic Resist....................112................85... ..............85
DPS....................................83......... ........116...............148
Attack Speed.....................0.821............1.138.. ..........1.456
Ability Power......................330...............422.5 ............507
Mana..................................2365........ .....1490.............1490
Mana Regen p/5...............18.5..............18.5............ ..28.5
Movement Speed..............380...............407.......... .....407
Cooldown Reduction........20................0.............. .....25

Bonus'
Set 1: Slow (Rylai's on Human Q, W, and Spider Q), Aura enemy MR reduction (Abyssal), Aura enemy AS reduction (Frozen Heart), Personal Stasis (Zhonya's), Tenacity (Merc)
Set 2: Slow (Rylai's on Human Q, W, and Spider Q), Enemy MR shredding on auto-attacks (Malady), Bonus magic damage after spell (Lich Bane), Tenacity (Merc)
Set 3: Slow (Rylai's on Human Q, W, and Spider Q), Enemy MR shredding on auto-attacks (Malady), Bonus magic damage after spell (Lich Bane), Tenacity (Merc)

I personally don't see the need for a Deathfire Grasp. With the nerf, Elise already has a version of the item in her Q that she can cast more often.
Hextec Revolver, while a nice item, I find that spell vamp is not as great on Elise. Like with Rylai's Crystal Scepter, it only works on her Human's Q, W and Spider's Q. The life steal from when you upgrade it to a Gunblade helps more from the Spider's W's AS steroid and the active slow can be nice, but then you're building another very expensive item.

Set 1 does a nice focus on survivability and utility for your team than anything else. You'll still be able to damage the enemy decently and take a beating while you're at it.
Set 2 has a decently low cost. Trades the survivability and utility for raw damage. The Lich Bane's ability synergizes well with all of Elise's ability's, especially in Spider form for much added burst damage above and beyond what is listed in the numbers above.
Set 3 is an extension of 2 if you're being fed or farmed up insanely well. Nashor's Tooth is expensive, but augments most of what Elise can do. If you manage to build this you should be face rolling people hard.

The main reason for the second and third set not having items that are normally on AP casters like an Abyssal Scepter or durability items like the Frozen Heart is that your other teammates might already have one and then there is no need to have one. Such as if you top or jungle Elise, that means you already have an AP mid, they normally have or will get an Abyssal Scepter. The second and third set is there for those confident in their ability to use Elise as she has many ability and burst to keep herself out of trouble.

Oh why not, let's add the damage from the others and see how all three of my builds do with Elise's Q. (No AP = 8%, Set 1 = 14.6%, Set 2 = 16.85%, Set 3 = 18.14%)

Enemy Current/Missing HP =>.......No AP.....Set 1.....Set 2.....Set 3
.........................................500..=>.. .....270........303........314.......321
.......................................1000..=>... ....310........376........399.......411
.......................................1500..=>... ....350........449........483.......502
.......................................2000..=>... ....390........522........567.......593
.......................................2500..=>... ....430........595........651.......684
.......................................3000..=>... ....470........668........736.......774


Yay, never have I written so much on one champion. Granted, all these numbers are as Elise is now. If she is Nerfed or Buffed, then of course these are all subject to change (so I'll date that these number's were done on 10/25 on PBE).


- Kat



*******edit
Yay, hit 7 stars (one for each edit).

This is something I posted on why I believe Rylai's Crystal Scepter is better than the Phage or Frozen Mallet for Elise.

Phage vs Rylai's

Phage
Cost - 1315 gold
Gives - 225 hp, 18 ad, 25% chance of a 20% slow for 2 sec on auto attacks (yes, the slow has been reduced from it's 30% slow for 2.5 sec).

Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Cost - 3105 gold
Gives - 500 hp, 80 ap, 100% chance of a 35% slow for 1.5 sec on both Human and Spider's Q, and a 15% slow for 1.5 sec on Human's W.

Now let's add Frozen Mallet because you might build into that after a Phage (as it's a main upgrade other than the expensive Trinity Force).

Frozen Mallet
Cost - 3250 gold
Gives - 700 hp, 20 ad, 100% chance on auto attacks for Spider form for a 40% slow for 2.5 sec and Human form for a 30% slow for 2.5 sec.


With the nerf to Phage, I don't see how reliable that is. It doesn't proc the slow every time and it slows for less when it does (granted it's .5 sec longer). The Frozen Mallet at least has a reliable slow, but it costs more than the Rylai's Crystal Scepter. That and the 20 ad doesn't help as much as 80 ap, that augments all of her abilities (well, all but E) and her spiderlings.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Ark

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eytukan View Post
Rushing trinity force and then wits end seems to work quite good for me
The thing with those items is that theyre great for champs that dont scale well in the first place.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dr Nurse Joy

Senior Member

10-27-2012

I just feel as though this champion has A LOT of untapped potential in top lane. She's not your conventional top, and in my own opinion, definitely doesn't deserve the "assassin" label, as she simply doesn't have the true burst of an assassin. She seems very...'Cho'gath'-ish though, but again, with much less burst. She's more of a poke champion with sustain, if you ask me


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ChromeFalcon

Member

10-27-2012

^ That's one of hell of a long post up there.

But yeah, tanky AP's way better than people think. They see the low AP ratios and think she's weak if you build her AP. But the point is that you have to use her human and spider forms simultaneously. And that's when you start seeing the damage rack up.

If you build her AD bruiser, there's no point in being in human form, ever. You have to stay in spider form for damage and you'll only use half her potential.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eytukan

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuXedo Ma5k View Post
The thing with those items is that theyre great for champs that dont scale well in the first place.
Trinity force is great on her, try it out - the synergy with spider Q, more attack speed to proc passive comboes with W, human form she can ranged slow with phage, and get a lot of sheen procs due to having 8 abilities.

Wits end is for over all durability without sacrificing too much dmg


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TySRT4

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuXedo Ma5k View Post
The thing with those items is that theyre great for champs that dont scale well in the first place.
BUT BUT GUARDSMAN BOB DID IT HE'S SO PRO!!!

I hate people like this.. GB builds that literally on everyone.... EVERYONE who is a new champ for the exact reason Tux stated... so for him they are getting out some dmg while he figures them out on the rest of the build.... Bob is Bob... none of you are him... how he plays is not how everyone else plays.

He built like that for Lulu... does that tell you anything?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeFalcon
But yeah, tanky AP's way better than people think. They see the low AP ratios and think she's weak if you build her AP. But the point is that you have to use her human and spider forms simultaneously. And that's when you start seeing the damage rack up.

If you build her AD bruiser, there's no point in being in human form, ever. You have to stay in spider form for damage and you'll only use half her potential.



Yep... people don't get her.. I mean ... her Q in human form.... and her Q in spider form... should pretty much show what she is about... but no ... people don't get it... with such an obvious hint.

It's the same as nid... you poke *****es down with range... then burst on tiger... such a hard concept.. it's like 90% of these players weren't around for..... ooh wait yeah


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

doombotMECHA

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-27-2012

I played her on TT last night--
I agree with the OP, except whenever he mentions q.
when you're playing the new TT,build a blackfire torch quickly, along with abyssal and rylai's
the torch allows your q to be useful even when they're at low health, and adds some all-around punch to your spells


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dr Nurse Joy

Senior Member

10-27-2012

@TySRT4

I read your whole post, and it was quite informative. However, the main problem with it is that it assumes that you have a full build. Most ranked games *I only play ranked*, tend to end somewhere between 20-40 minutes. In order to complete a build like that, you would not only have to have the cs for it, but also a fair amount of kills and assists. While assists are easy to achieve as this champion, kills are not. Therefore we have to assume a lower amount of ap. But the reality of the fact is, this champion is less dependent on ability power at all, as her spider form and % damage abilities are basically the bread and butter of her kit.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dr Nurse Joy

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by doombotMECHA View Post
I played her on TT last night--
I agree with the OP, except whenever he mentions q.
when you're playing the new TT,build a blackfire torch quickly, along with abyssal and rylai's
the torch allows your q to be useful even when they're at low health, and adds some all-around punch to your spells
I apologize, but my whole post was built around ranked 5s. I haven't played the new TT, nor will I pretend to know anything about the new updated Twisted Treeline map. I should have clarified that in the main post.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ChromeFalcon

Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TySRT4 View Post
Yep... people don't get her.. I mean ... her Q in human form.... and her Q in spider form... should pretty much show what she is about... but no ... people don't get it... with such an obvious hint.

It's the same as nid... you poke *****es down with range... then burst on tiger... such a hard concept.. it's like 90% of these players weren't around for..... ooh wait yeah
Human Q does more damage the more health they have.
Spider Q does more damage the less health they have.

Starting a fight, you'd use Q right off the bat, then W for more damage (and since you build AP, it wont be useless), E for a good 1.5 stun, switch to spider and Q/W.

That's so much better than being forced into staying spider form just for that W while the rest of your spells are useless. But people dont seem to mind this because they're focused on low AP ratios and doing damage with her spider W attack speed.