Could we get an RP to IP converter?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TimeScar

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akesgeroth View Post
You're opening a box which you should have left closed.

First of all, you DO have to buy champions. You can't seriously pretend someone can just use free week champions all the time. More champions means more versatility. Now, of course, you can buy them with IP, but since you guys decided to make every new champion cost 6300 ip and reduce IP rewards... On top of that, runes can only be bought with IP, which means buying champs with IP essentially gimps you unless you already have full rune pages.

Unlocking a single 6300 ip champion will easily take around 50 hours of gameplay. Pretending you don't mean for people to purchase them with RP is laughable, and pretending that it doesn't affect gameplay is absurd. And inevitably, if you keep this stance, you'll get compared to DotA 2, which is also free, but has all champions unlocked at the start and does not have a masteries/runes metagame that requires grinding. Their income comes entirely from cosmetic items, and know what? It works.

If the IP system was reasonable, there would not be an issue. But it isn't. IP gain rates are ridiculously slow unless you buy boosts (which cost RP, btw), which barely gets them into the "acceptable" range. Unless you spend RP on boosts and champions, you will remain crazy gimped for a long, LONG, LONG time.

It's like claiming someone working minimum wage can become a millionaire with that job. Sure, if he lives to be 600 years old, never has any accidents that force him to spend money and works the whole time and lives extremely poorly. Realistically though, it's a dubious claim. You'll buy the old champs at 450 ip and even then it'll prevent you from getting runes for a while. And let's not even count the cost of additional rune pages.
I don't know what planet you live on, but on mine DotA 2 hasn't come out yet and we have no idea whether their system works or not yet. Also, Riot has increased IP rewards in many cases, or at least evened them out. Even when I'm not in a serious playing mood and I just play one game a day to get first win, I can afford a 6300 champion every other patch, so I get 1 out of every 2 newly released champions. This is perfectly fine for the average player.

I agree that runes and masteries are a bit too grindy right now. I think there should be some sort of reward/discount for players just hitting 30 to help people become competitive and purchase their first set of runes and have enough champions to make a draft (unranked) team.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aggrbargl

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zekarie View Post
You guys are completely missing the point. Sure, when you look at it like a ****** it is indirectly buying power, grats, you win, you are indirectly buying power. Riot does not directly let you buy power (runes, exp, IP) because those require you to play the game to improve the ACTUAL STATISTICS OF YOUR IN GAME CHAMPION.

There is NO WAY that you can increase the effectiveness of your character in game no matter how much money you throw at it, at some point you have to play the game. If you were allowed to buy IP or convert RP to IP then you would be giving a way to DIRECTLY increase the power of a champion without actually playing.

There is a very good separation right now. So congrats on believing that buying a champion is buying IP, its not... its not even close. If you don't understand that then this whole conversation is lost on you anyway and you will just be disgruntled because you have to play the game to get runes instead of just buying them with cash (since that is what this is all about).
Indirect power is still power.

For that matter, I think grinding power is questionable, too. If I had my way, everyone would enter champion select on a completely even footing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TimeScar

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggrbargl View Post
How do you reconcile this position with your the selling of champions, which improve a player's ability to counterpick both personally and by trading with teammates; and rune pages, which are required to play many champions at full effectiveness and to adapt to the opposing team's picks?
I think this is a matter of defining power. I think many would agree that having a bigger pool of champions for flexibility is powerful in champ select and when you are building your team. Once the game starts however, on an individual champion basis, the money you spent has no direct influence on your champion's stats and ability to fight other champions. It's a technicality, but a fairly important one I feel.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TimeScar

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggrbargl View Post
Indirect power is still power.

For that matter, I think grinding power is questionable, too. If I had my way, everyone would enter champion select on a completely even footing.
Let's see how much money to make on that high chair you sit on. You cannot have successful FREE game out there that doesn't involve grind in one tiny form or another, and 99% of non-free games have grind in them too. At least in LoL the only grind is playing a new game every day, and not collecting skins.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZetsubouFallen

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotKiddington View Post
Riot will not support this idea. This idea is essentially "selling power", which Riot is strongly against.
Ha, PFE bug with QW range?

Ah, had forgotten it, Riot also buff to have more sales, like Twisted Fate atm, which got secretly buffed the range on Q.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raisu

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyshonest View Post
Snipped
Its both, but you hit the nail on the head. This practice is not uncommon (Ever look at hotdog and hotdog bun packaging?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggrbargl View Post
How do you reconcile this position with your the selling of champions, which improve a player's ability to counterpick both personally and by trading with teammates; and rune pages, which are required to play many champions at full effectiveness and to adapt to the opposing team's picks?
Champions do not make a stronger player. They make a more versatile player.

I've personally had games where my opponent chose the most common counter-pick for the champion I selected, only to end up losing his lane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeScar View Post
Let's see how much money to make on that high chair you sit on. You cannot have successful FREE game out there that doesn't involve grind in one tiny form or another, and 99% of non-free games have grind in them too. At least in LoL the only grind is playing a new game every day, and not collecting skins.
In addition to that, the worst grind you can have in a game, is one where you have to "grind before you can play the game". One example would be WoW vs GW2, in WoW the end-game content is restricted to high-end characters. In GW2 the end-game content is available to people on their first day of playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daitrombe View Post
Of course technically they don't force you to buy champs or hell play the game at all, but that is missing the point, buying champions with RP gives you a LOT of IP to buy runes and the like, compare it to the effectiveness of IP boosts for example.

They ARE selling power, just indirectly, you're paying 975 RP for 6.3K IP if you were definitely going to buy the champion.
Scenario 1:
You have 0 IP and 975 RP, you want <New Champion> but you also want <New Runes>, you use 975 RP.
You still have 0 IP and cannot purchase <New Runes>, your purchase of 975 RP did not give you 6.3k IP

Scenario 2:
You have 6300 IP and 975 RP, you want <New Champion> but you also want <New Runes>, you use 975 RP.
You still have 6300 IP that you can use on <New Runes> instead of using it on <New Champion>. This was the luxury provided by using RP

Scenario 3:
You have 6300 IP and 0 RP, you want <New Champion> but you also want <New Runes>, you use 975 RP.
Where'd that RP come from... Oh right you purchased it specifically so you didn't have to use your IP. See above luxury note.

TL;DR - Pay attention to Scenario 1. You're not purchasing IP with RP.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Needles K

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeScar View Post
Let's see how much money to make on that high chair you sit on. You cannot have successful FREE game out there that doesn't involve grind in one tiny form or another, and 99% of non-free games have grind in them too. At least in LoL the only grind is playing a new game every day, and not collecting skins.
TIL Team Fortress 2 isn't successful. Who knew?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aggrbargl

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeScar View Post
Let's see how much money to make on that high chair you sit on. You cannot have successful FREE game out there that doesn't involve grind in one tiny form or another, and 99% of non-free games have grind in them too. At least in LoL the only grind is playing a new game every day, and not collecting skins.
99%? Really? Several entire genres are largely grind-free, including the RTS genre that spawned League of Legends. As for free games, it's my understanding that all gameplay-affecting elements are freely and imediately available in Defense of the Ancients 2. Granted, that one's not formally released yet, but I think it's fair to say that Valve know what they're doing.

Anyway, I don't have the will to continue this debate. I just wanted to put the question out there on the off chance Kiddington would answer it.

But I'll address this post, since it was made before I finished writing this:

Quote:
Champions do not make a stronger player. They make a more versatile player.

I've personally had games where my opponent chose the most common counter-pick for the champion I selected, only to end up losing his lane.
Versatility is power. The power to select the best tool for a given situation out of many is a significant one. Not everyone has the skill to fully exploit this advantage, but it is one nonetheless. Besides, that argument only applies to champions, and even then not to trading champions with teammates; the advantage conferred by multiple rune pages allowing you to tailor your defenses to your lane opponent, for instance, requires little skill to exploit.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rejuvination

Senior Member

10-25-2012

#1 thing i tell people i know IRL who play league: never, EVER spend RP on champs; just play a bunch of games, and before you know it, you have enough. I'm at the point where pretty much all I have left to buy is half of the 6300 champs and some less expensive ones that I don't really want because of ARAM situations (poppy). It really doesn't take long to get champs that you enjoy playing, especially with how (honestly) often that Riot gives double IP boosts. and yes, this is what makes Riot different from almost EVERY OTHER F2P game: you can't pay for power. using real money to speed up time playing the game is somewhat abuse-able, and has ruined quite a few other free to play games.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Daitrombe

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raisu View Post
Scenario 1:
You have 0 IP and 975 RP, you want <New Champion> but you also want <New Runes>, you use 975 RP.
You still have 0 IP and cannot purchase <New Runes>, your purchase of 975 RP did not give you 6.3k IP

Scenario 2:
You have 6300 IP and 975 RP, you want <New Champion> but you also want <New Runes>, you use 975 RP.
You still have 6300 IP that you can use on <New Runes> instead of using it on <New Champion>. This was the luxury provided by using RP

Scenario 3:
You have 6300 IP and 0 RP, you want <New Champion> but you also want <New Runes>, you use 975 RP.
Where'd that RP come from... Oh right you purchased it specifically so you didn't have to use your IP. See above luxury note.

TL;DR - Pay attention to Scenario 1. You're not purchasing IP with RP.
You're still situationally buying power. And by the way, champions ARE power. They wouldn't be if the game was perfectly balanced, but it isn't.

That said, you call effectively doubling your currency a luxury? Ha.