@Morello and company: will S3 address the "starvation support" issue?

First Riot Post
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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Bumping this back up Q('-'Q)


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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

10-18-2012

Thanks, guys! Please keep commenting and bumping so we can make sure Morello reads this. It's something I'd really like to have on his mind as they finish designing these S3 Support changes.


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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOne2Blame View Post
Bump for justice!
Sweet justice!


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Zatir

Senior Member

10-19-2012

It's great that they're finally giving Supports love. I really enjoy playing supports a lot, makes me feel like I have a huge impact sometimes (Like Polymorphing the Kat that decides to jump in and ult, or Crescendoing the enemy team and letting mine just Ace them). But it is the worst thing in the world when you can't even afford boots because you have to spend all your gold on wards and a Philosopher's Stone, and you also happen to be the character with the lowest base movement speed.


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Falrick

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Senior Member

10-22-2012

Someone mentioned last hit assists. I don't want my support pushing my wave just so they can get a few bucks. I think it'd encourage bad play


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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Bumps!


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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ?øki View Post
Someone mentioned last hit assists. I don't want my support pushing my wave just so they can get a few bucks. I think it'd encourage bad play
I do not think that would be a good solution, in part because it would lead to this kind of feuding.


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ldqpbl

Senior Member

10-24-2012

...dear riot, make the keywords on your champions matter; if a champ is labeled 'support' then provide some 'support-only' items (this really should have been done with innervating locket imo, tagging it as 'support-only' would benefit the champs it was designed for and keep it out of the hands of those that abused it); if you don't want to restrict itemization this way then provide discounts (eg. a support could buy a support-tagged item for 40-50% off or so, whereas a support buying something like IE would cost them more)

...leona is an example that always springs to mind; she's supposed to be tanky and initiate, diving into the midst of a teamfight but what do you see built on her come teamfights ~ boots 1, philo and HoG, you can't tank and effectively do your job with such poor itemization


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-24-2012
1 of 7 Riot Posts

So, let's talk in-depth about supports, and your post specifically.

The things we specifically want to do to supports via itemization (there's a couple under-the-hood improvements too)

* Lessen the gold cost and ward burden for supports without buffing wards.

Much of the problem is how the support champion takes on a lot of the ward burden, and how much gold that drains from a champion. There's a couple items that can help this.

* Increase the types of support items available

Part of the problem also exists in that the only support items are really auras or Shurelya's (a good support item design, imo). More cool or active items, especially ones that add to strategy, are on the docket.

* Increase Support's access to gold. This is hairy, because we disagree on the amount and severity of this (even though we agree on the problem existing and it should be addressed). Let's chat about this specifically.

Your post speaks to a 5th gold stream, and actually has a good analysis of why that alone isn't a solution that works without supporting mechanics. I think a 5th gold stream is suboptimal and has greater risks than the problem you lay out;

Quote:
"Splash" gold mechanic that gives gold to a Champion when a nearby allied Champion scores a last-hit. See, for example, this "Synergy" mechanic suggestion. ( http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=21831209 ) It would provide about 40% of a normal goldstream, but would send the gold only to non-farming champs.
I like some things about this solution, but what we don't want to do is make the trees class-focused only (something we're working to change in S3). So an AP going 21 in Utility should have viability, or a tank going 21 in offense. This transcends lane assignment, which occasionally changes with meta. We do have a new utility mastery that should help support, and is part of a "thousand cuts" approach - a number of small changes that add up to a larger result.

Quote:
Make all gold global, like Tower gold is now. e.g., every time a 20g minion is killed by a Champion, all that team's champions receive 4g. (Pretty radical change; I don't personally like it much, because it would eliminate some interesting strategies based on preventing specific champs from farming effectively.)
I agree this is a problem here, but I've actually played a few MOBAs that use this system and it's a big problem. It basically promotes really passive play and removes characters from action areas, or lessens the need to combat over minion resources. It's also a team snowball mechanic (my carry has 30 more CS than yours, therefore my whole team has +480 more gold than yours).

Quote:
Create an item with a low resale value that gives massive gp10 but prevents you from receiving any gold from farming. (Would potentially lead to 5-champ bands of roamers, though.)
Basically makes tons of problems - 5 roam is very possible, makes it so you can't "beat" someone in lane unless this is really low, lessens interplay between laners). Adds no new gameplay, either.

Quote:
Give assist-gold for minion kills analogous to the assist-gold for champion kills. So if you deal damage to a minion that isn't a last-hit, or buff the killer, you get some bonus gold. (DebosBike proposes this below.)
This requires supports to be lane pushers to an extent and causes some real friction to get gold. It also takes supports off their primary functions, like healing, buffing, or harassing.

We do want to improve support itemization and support gold. We don't have any intention of giving them carry-gold, or high gold streams as this pushes traditional, low-scaling supports out of the game forever. If my options are to have a fed Sona or a fed Annie in my bottom lane, I would rarely choose Sona. This is the problem. Additionally, supports scaling can only be done with damage - and if they're good because of their utility with no gold, how crazy are they with it when they do DPS? (I'd like to do a support-scaling change to make their supportive abilities scale on AP later down the road - not for S3 preseason though).

Instead, we're giving them more gold, and making them spend less on warding (allowing them to keep that gold). While I don't expect any of these changes to be perfect when they come out of the gate, it's much better than currently. Additionally, giving them more additional item choices with that gold range in mind will help them make more item-based decisions. What I don't want to do is change the entire gold dynamic of League of Legends - by definition, one character will get the least gold each game. That character needs to have interesting things to do with the item system.

So we don't exactly agree, but I think we do agree on this issue's problems overall. We haven't gone with any of the suggestions listed here, but we have taken some bigger steps towards making this feel better, and thus far internal testing has been pretty positive. This is one of the big areas we're focusing on with each system.


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The Letter CtrlZ

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Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Placeholder for bigass post that I put some time into (ie not between TF2 map loads) :P
Dis gon be gud :P