Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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Gaara 0fThe Funk

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imclueless View Post
Your argument is so logical, I can find no fault in it. Come on, man. If you want to make a point, actually make it. I don't see any argument from you except "You're wrong because I say so."

Supports are STILL strong. How do I know? They still get picked, and we still have a Support/ADC meta. Support players are STILL central to the victory of coordinated teams (see: Azubu Frost and Taipei Assassins).

If we ever see that Support/ADC is no longer optimal, because Supports are just that weak, that means that they have been nerfed too much. That'll be a problem. But, that's not happening right now, and it's probably not happening any time soon.
No, as long as its better to have one person with 15k gold and another with 7k gold as opposed to having two with 11k gold- a 0cs teammate will always be used.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

10-16-2012

It's funny, this is what happened to Sona before the spate of Janna and Soraka nerfs. She was considered trash tier, then Riot finally rescued her by reducing her global cooldown. This made it possible to pick a Power Chord on-demand instead of having to think 6 seconds into the future, making clutch slows possible and making Sona strong again without rebuffing her numbers. Now, Sona is actually *fun*. Combine this with Janna and Soraka being nerfed and muscled out by the Taric/Ali/Blitz/Leona meta and suddenly Sona is the only one of the old support Trinity worth picking.

You know, I'll bet we can trace a lot of things back to Soraka and Janna nerfs.

With Soraka and Janna being sub-par at their jobs, sustain lanes become less desirable and less safe. Consequently, carries need to be able to farm more safely but also get kills early to speed up laning. Enter: Corki, Ezreal, and Graves. To complement them, aggressive supports became more viable. Junglers also needed to be tankier lest they give away a kill from a failed gank and they need CC to overwhelm bot lane's dashes. With laning ending sooner, teams started looking to the jungle to help make up the difference in income, which also means ideal junglers don't need very much farm. With junglers packing more tankiness and CC, it became even more important for mids and tops to have dashes since they can't hope to 2v1 and they aren't allowed to simply walk back to their tower. And with the general higher overall tankiness, burst casters and assassins (AP or AD) have generally been unviable. This leads to Evelynn being a strong assassin despite being worse at dispatching squishies than other assassins because she can actually do something against a team with a tank, and tanky bruiser, and a tanky support.

Did I miss anything?


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Sovreign22

Senior Member

10-16-2012

In b4 taric and leona nerfs. Blitz and ali nerfs would happen except their abilities could do no damage and people would still use them due to their kits. Can't nerf them w/out breaking their kits.


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Eletale

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imclueless View Post
For the love of all that is holy, look up some Red posts on this. It comes down to "As long as Supports are still getting picked, they haven't been nerfed into uselessness."
Yes, acording to Morello, when traditional supports are just about to be completely outclassed by CC tanks and AP carries with utility, then they're balanced.

I repeat: if supports who can't neither AP carry nor tank properly at competitive level, start performing the jobs they're created to fulfil just as well as outsider champions who just happen to have some sort of utility worth for support, then they are considered balanced.

WHAT THE **** IS WITH THAT LOGIC?


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Alejandro baby

Junior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eletale View Post
Yes, acording to Morello, when traditional supports are just about to be completely outclassed by CC tanks and AP carries with utility, then they're balanced.

I repeat: if supports who can't neither AP carry nor tank properly at competitive level, start performing the jobs they're created to fulfil just as well as outsider champions who just happen to have some sort of utility worth for support, then they are considered balanced.

WHAT THE **** IS WITH THAT LOGIC?
It is a joke I would love to see the top lane or mid get nerfed as hard the supports do and then we would really see how cool every one is with it.The reason why most people don't care is the fact that most people wont even be bothered playing the role.ANY CHAMP CAN PLAY SUPPORT.That fact alone just shows its a joke in the current balance system.I have trolled support just about every thing and I have yet to see a champ that cant do a decent job.


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Ledinax

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Bump!


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Ledinax

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Bumping again - This thread should stay at the frontpage.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-16-2012
1 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledinax View Post
What happens when you nerf champion B because he's strong compared to/against champion A?

In an ideal world, they would be balanced. However, this world is far of a fair one. So what happens is that now champion B is considered worth picking, and god have mercy if he's good now that champion A is not viable.

So, what happens here is that, after a few months (and/or a tournament), champion B is nerfed and is now worse than champion A post-nerf...

And the cycle continues until they both are unviable and reaaaally weak, moment in which neither of them is picked at all. Now the viable champions in A and B role are C and D. And C is stronger than D...

You see where this is going? Yup, reverse power creep. Nerf everything that is relatively strong until everything is weak.

And this are supports in a nutshell.
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.


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PriorityOne

Senior Member

10-16-2012

I just wish you'd leave the Mage part of Mage/Support characters intact.

Galio is a Mage/Tank who can function well building primarily AP items or defensive items, however it feels like Mage/Supports have gotten the Mage hammered out of them with repeated nerfs.


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Vanblod

Senior Member

10-16-2012

You have to admit that it is starting to get a little silly with how much **** Sona has had to take over season 2 though. She is starting to become like Jax <_<


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