Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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Ledinax

Senior Member

10-16-2012

EDIT 5: Now this is it. Let's see what Riot is most probably gonna do to buff supports in S4:
- Give them ratios for some of their utility spells. (and by utility ratios, I mean something like 0.1AP).
- Destroy almost all ratios and bases. Traditional supports will now have to build AP if they want to be AS STRONG AS THEY WERE IN S3 (which isn't strong at all).
- Rework Shurelia's and Shard of True ice entire build paths (I'm never gonna call them by their garbage new names). Shurelia's gold if you stay near minions is negligible (+3 gold if a nearby minion dies. Woohoo) and doesnt' give health anymore, only situational health regen and mana regen (although the active is still great). New Shard seems good until you realize that some of your AOE spells could accidentally kill minions in lane and disable the gold generation.
- Not even have concerns about utility mages replacing supports. Even worse, they are saying it's ok for them to go bot (kill lanes s4 with a mage is gonna be a thing most of the season, calling it now) while explicitly saying that traditional supports will be nerfed if they ever see play in other lanes. Thanks for the fairness and non-hypocrism, Riot.
- Some typical supports have been forgotten about with these changes. Mainly Blitzcrank, Alistar and Zilean. Guess they are so bad in support role already that you didn't see any reason to nerf them too. Thanks?
- While being still one of the greatest supports, all Leona (not really complaining about it. It just seems extremely weird to me) recieved was a pat in the shoulder: she now needs only 25 MR and armmor to be as good as before).

Really, at this point I have lost all faith in Riot regarding traditional supports. Don't know what is worse: to think they don't know what they are doing, or to believe they are destroying traditional supports on purpose.


EDIT4/UPDATE: As of 10/4/2013, APs with utility (like Annie) are being played as supports due to their damage and CC being superior to the ones of true supports. Tanky melee supports like Taric or Alistar are not even considered viable anymore.

This is a sad period for us support mains.

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What happens when you nerf champion A because he's strong compared to/against champion B?

In an ideal world, they would be balanced. However, this world is far of a fair one. So what happens is that now champion B is considered worth picking, and god have mercy if he's good now that champion A is not viable.

So, what happens here is that, after a few months (and/or a tournament), champion B is nerfed and is now worse than champion A post-nerf...

And the cycle continues until they both are unviable and reaaaally weak, moment in which neither of them is picked at all. Now the viable champions in A and B role are C and D. And C is stronger than D...

You see where this is going? Yup, reverse power creep. Nerf everything that is relatively strong until everything is weak.

And this are supports in a nutshell.

EDIT1: Bump for Zyra's sake.
EDIT2: Bump for TARIC's sake. Sorry Leona, you'll be next it seems.
EDIT3: Now they are deciding to nerf... Sona's POWERCHORD??? Holy ****, Riot. You guys amaze me.


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Alsonia

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Where is the Red stating Sona nerfs?


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Dr Clueless PhD

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledinax View Post
What happens when you nerf champion B because he's strong compared to/against champion A?

In an ideal world, they would be balanced. However, this world is far of a fair one. So what happens is that now champion B is considered worth picking, and god have mercy if he's good now that champion A is not viable.

So, what happens here is that, after a few months (and/or a tournament), champion B is nerfed and is now worse than champion A post-nerf...

And the cycle continues until they both are unviable and reaaaally weak, moment in which neither of them is picked at all. Now the viable champions in A and B role are C and D. And C is stronger than D...

You see where this is going? Yup, reverse power creep. Nerf everything that is relatively strong until everything is weak.

And this are supports in a nutshell.
For the love of all that is holy, look up some Red posts on this. It comes down to "As long as Supports are still getting picked, they haven't been nerfed into uselessness."


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Ledinax

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imclueless View Post
For the love of all that is holy, look up some Red posts on this. It comes down to "As long as Supports are still getting picked, they have been nerfed into uselessness."
Fixed.


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scrappycocopuff

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

this is exactly what happened to janna the first time they nerfed sona's q/powerchord. she became FOTM OP and got nerfed into the ground because there weren't any picks that punished her that hard anymore.


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Dr Clueless PhD

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledinax View Post
Fixed.
Your argument is so logical, I can find no fault in it. Come on, man. If you want to make a point, actually make it. I don't see any argument from you except "You're wrong because I say so."

Supports are STILL strong. How do I know? They still get picked, and we still have a Support/ADC meta. Support players are STILL central to the victory of coordinated teams (see: Azubu Frost and Taipei Assassins).

If we ever see that Support/ADC is no longer optimal, because Supports are just that weak, that means that they have been nerfed too much. That'll be a problem. But, that's not happening right now, and it's probably not happening any time soon.


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Mjaxon

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imclueless View Post
For the love of all that is holy, look up some Red posts on this. It comes down to "As long as Supports are still getting picked, they haven't been nerfed into uselessness."
It helps that Riot almost never releases support champs, so people are forced to shoehorn Leona and Zyra into support role.


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SixMinutesLate

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Supports are so useless they showed up in 100% of the world championship games

Jeez someone needs to tell these pro players how bad they are


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Ixionas

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Yes, this is riots design philosophy. They believe nerfing champions instead of buffing is easier to manage in the long run. Having champions get continuously weaker is better than champions getting continuously stronger until they can all one shot one another. There are posts where they confirm this. I don't feel like looking. If supports were that weak, then they wouldn't be played at all. Pros would send lee sin down to support the AD carry instead. Until supports don't fill their role better than others, then riot is doing fine. Supports are inherently overpowered because they have to be able to have an impact on the game while having no gold income.


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Housemate

Senior Member

10-16-2012

I wouldnt say its a power creep, but I would say that giving a massive aoe cc ult on a poke-sustain support is just a tool that is way out of place in her kit. Tanks and stuff get that kind of ability, sustain supports do not.

Makes her super duper hard to balance.


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