Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

First Riot Post
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Pigrat

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
We've actually been working on changes for the jungle in anticipation for Season 3 and though I can't really give all the details here because we are still iterating, I'd like to give you guys some insights into what's going on.

There are a multitude of issues we're tackling and they are very much intertwined. The current dominant jungle strategy (GP10 Support / Tanks) is fairly stagnant and the overall current jungle playstyle in many cases severely limits potential strategy and choices in other lanes/roles as well.

One large problem is that efficient farming of the jungle has very little pay off compared to constantly applying lane pressure by camping / ganking. Overall junglers severely lack in gold unless they successfully gank and snowball the game from the get-go and/or opt for a GP10 strategy.

The approach we're currently taking is to significantly increase the rewards of jungle camps over time (junglers already have a huge impact on the early game). To go along with this though, we are buffing jungle camps back up to actually be more threatening while simultaneously offering new / improved item paths that allow players to specialize in the jungle. Overall we want junglers to be rewarded for building combat stats rather than always being forced to build gold generation items.

This is not the only thing we're changing in the jungle for next season, but these types of things are definitely on our radar.


Lantern now builds into a legendary item?


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mambawarrior

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Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
efficient farming of the jungle has very little pay off compared to constantly applying lane pressure by camping / ganking.

The approach we're currently taking is to significantly increase the rewards of jungle camps

we are buffing jungle camps back up to actually be more threatening

Overall we want junglers to be rewarded for building combat stats rather than always being forced to build gold generation items.
Sooooooo

You're reverting the jungle changes?


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EpicDivinity

Senior Member

10-15-2012

I hope Season 3 lives up to my expectations.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Apparently Morello revealed on a stream tonight that jungle was being reworked again for Season 3... but no details at all yet.

edit: JK red posted above me lol


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

10-15-2012
2 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mambawarrior View Post
Sooooooo

You're reverting the jungle changes?
In some ways, yes, though not completely.

We aren't going all the way back to the extreme of the old jungle where you would just get crushed unless you were Warwick, but we do feel there is a happy medium between Season 1 and Season 2 that we can strike.

The biggest difference here though is that we will be offering itemization that will help champions who need that extra boost in the jungle. Champions who are already super strong in the jungle may opt to not build these items, but it's pretty interesting to see what new junglers may become viable with these new items.


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Jordian

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
In some ways, yes, though not completely.

We aren't going all the way back to the extreme of the old jungle where you would just get crushed unless you were Warwick, but we do feel there is a happy medium between Season 1 and Season 2 that we can strike.

The biggest difference here though is that we will be offering itemization that will help champions who need that extra boost in the jungle. Champions who are already super strong in the jungle may opt to not build these items, but it's pretty interesting to see what new junglers may become viable with these new items.
I think I love you


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Eat Orange Be K

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
We've actually been working on changes for the jungle in anticipation for Season 3 and though I can't really give all the details here because we are still iterating, I'd like to give you guys some insights into what's going on.

There are a multitude of issues we're tackling and they are very much intertwined. The current dominant jungle strategy (GP10 Support / Tanks) is fairly stagnant and the overall current jungle playstyle in many cases severely limits potential strategy and choices in other lanes/roles as well.

One large problem is that efficient farming of the jungle has very little pay off compared to constantly applying lane pressure by camping / ganking. Overall junglers severely lack in gold unless they successfully gank and snowball the game from the get-go and/or opt for a GP10 strategy.

The approach we're currently taking is to significantly increase the rewards of jungle camps over time (junglers already have a huge impact on the early game). To go along with this though, we are buffing jungle camps back up to actually be more threatening while simultaneously offering new / improved item paths that allow players to specialize in the jungle. Overall we want junglers to be rewarded for building combat stats rather than always being forced to build gold generation items.

This is not the only thing we're changing in the jungle for next season, but these types of things are definitely on our radar.
If you don't mind commenting, you mention the predominance of both support tank junglers and focus on ganking/lane pressure. I remember reading an article from Stonewall a while back about old jungle and the balancing act of strategies between "Farming" Junglers, "Ganking" junglers, and "Invading/Counterjungling" junglers. It was really insightful into how each had balances and strengths/weaknesses against the other types. Are you guys keeping aware of this kind of interplay and looking to bring it back? It seems that the jungle lost a lot of it's dynamic and strategy; Farming junglers went by the wayside, and only about half the Invading/Counter junglers kept strength.

I'm not saying a full revert should be put in place, but it would be nice to see the strategic interplay in jungler vs. jungler be developed again so it's not just limited to "countergank or try to counterjungle during ganks." It felt much more like the jungle was almost it's own place before and the junglers really were against each other. Now it feels a lot more like the jungle is just a starting point and the other jungler isn't the direct opposition to your jungle as much as the other team as a while.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
In some ways, yes, though not completely.

We aren't going all the way back to the extreme of the old jungle where you would just get crushed unless you were Warwick, but we do feel there is a happy medium between Season 1 and Season 2 that we can strike.

The biggest difference here though is that we will be offering itemization that will help champions who need that extra boost in the jungle. Champions who are already super strong in the jungle may opt to not build these items, but it's pretty interesting to see what new junglers may become viable with these new items.
Will wraiths be farmable with low cost to mid laners, especially ones with blue buff? That is what makes the biggest issue here.

Also what about XP issues? Old jungle could let someone who focused on jungle exclusively and never missed a camp and perhaps took one of his opponents to ding 6 while a solo lane was still 5. This was a big deal when this changed and severely gimped most of the aggressive junglers.


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Jordian

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
Will wraiths be farmable with low cost to mid laners, especially ones with blue buff? That is what makes the biggest issue here.

Also what about XP issues? Old jungle could let someone who focused on jungle exclusively and never missed a camp and perhaps took one of his opponents to ding 6 while a solo lane was still 5. This was a big deal when this changed and severely gimped most of the aggressive junglers.
Morde will still steal every wraith and wolf camp from the jungler just how he is.


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Vurian

Junior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
In some ways, yes, though not completely.

We aren't going all the way back to the extreme of the old jungle where you would just get crushed unless you were Warwick, but we do feel there is a happy medium between Season 1 and Season 2 that we can strike.

The biggest difference here though is that we will be offering itemization that will help champions who need that extra boost in the jungle. Champions who are already super strong in the jungle may opt to not build these items, but it's pretty interesting to see what new junglers may become viable with these new items.
So are these items going to be only viable in the jungle, and when late game hits you will want to sell them (similar to how wriggles is now) or will they remain a solid tier 2-3 item choice that you can actually want to hold onto throught the majority of the game?