Nocturne is not a true assassin

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BiggieJohn

Senior Member

10-11-2012

come through lane and ult from behind your tower into lane just as your sona lands her ult. GG. His ult is superb for lane ganking, they never warded behind the tower in lane.


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Bastilico

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
Hey. I do not mean to be glib in saying this, but can you please tell us what you think an assassin in LoL means? It should help us focus the discussion.
I think a lot of people expect an assassin in LoL to be a champion with many of the following qualities:

1) Strong mechanic for diving a carry
2) Powerful, Scaling burst
3) Strong Chase or CC to prevent escape
4) A defensive mechanic designed to hard counter certain types of champions
5) A good escape mechanism
6) Powerful snowballing mechanic (Think Kat's Passive)

I think people expect assassins to perform at least some of the following jobs in a game:

1) Have powerful early ganks for farming champions or keeping a particular champ down
2) Pick off lone champions
3) Kill the enemy carry in a team fight
4) Act as a Clean-Up Crew in team fights

Assassins tend to be strongest during the laning phase where their dueling and ganking abilities allow them to take advantage of lone champions. They tend to fall off when the team fighting starts because the carry is defended much better with their whole team around.

AFAIK Nocturne has received so many nerfs because his kit has the same problem that Jarvan's has - too much stuff.

Let's look at Nocturne's kit.

AoE auto attack boost as a passive
Life on-hit in that same passive
55 AD (more than a BF sword)
Built in ghost for chasing
40% passive attack speed boost which can double for 5 seconds
a spellshield
2 second targeted fear
arguably the longest range gap closer in the game
global vision denial

That's a lot. Because Nocturne's kit has so much in it and removing any of it would take the Nocturne out of Nocturne, over time Riot has cut back on almost all of his kit a little bit. Whether or not this means that Nocturne is in a good place right now is an entirely different story and isn't up to me to decide.

That's just my $0.02. I hope I'm not alone in thinking this and that it helps this discussion about Nocturne's identity.


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Crackerjack5

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
In my 5s team we went against a Nocturne.... I was support bot Leona, and I tried SO hard to ward against him. I had wards on both sides of red buff bushes, and tribrush to dragon. He still ganked us.
why weren't you planing noc 0_o


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Noc was designed as an Assassin (just like Irelia) but had too much of everything (Irelia, Noc, Jarvan, Xin, .... the Rise of the Bruisers)
After the nerfs it was the most effective way to play him as a bruiser jungler. He has a CC, some AOE dmg, a great initiation tool an a lot of steroids for DPS.
So he is more of a melee fighter than a assassin.

Other champs:
- Irelia (fighter but has the assassin tag)
- Diana (is an assassin, but has a fighter tag)
- Rengar (no assassin tag, but can be played as an assasin or fighter)

You could still play Noc as an assassin (focusing dmg items, not intitiating the team fight most of the time), but after you spell block, you are dead meat in no time. Noc doesn't have the efensive abilities and overall high mobility like Diana or Rengar. He also doesn't have the burst of a Talon or Kata.

With that in mind it makes more sense to play him like Irelia: a good amount of defensive stats and around 2 offensive items in the full build (Irelia has TriForce and Wits End, He can take Yomuus and LW/BT/....).


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Lord Graves III

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Senior Member

10-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Noc was designed as an Assassin (just like Irelia) but had too much of everything (Irelia, Noc, Jarvan, Xin, .... the Rise of the Bruisers)
After the nerfs it was the most effective way to play him as a bruiser jungler. He has a CC, some AOE dmg, a great initiation tool an a lot of steroids for DPS.
So he is more of a melee fighter than a assassin.

Other champs:
- Irelia (fighter but has the assassin tag)
- Diana (is an assassin, but has a fighter tag)
- Rengar (no assassin tag, but can be played as an assasin or fighter)

You could still play Noc as an assassin (focusing dmg items, not intitiating the team fight most of the time), but after you spell block, you are dead meat in no time. Noc doesn't have the efensive abilities and overall high mobility like Diana or Rengar. He also doesn't have the burst of a Talon or Kata.

With that in mind it makes more sense to play him like Irelia: a good amount of defensive stats and around 2 offensive items in the full build (Irelia has TriForce and Wits End, He can take Yomuus and LW/BT/....).
Just my 2 cents.

Straight damage noc isn't quite viable, as is true with many characters. That said, if you want damage you need to build damage. Noctune doesn't get damage for free.

The problem with assassin nocturne is the same as assassin anyone. Assassins capitalize on errors of enemy positioning or skill usage. To play noc as an assassin you would need to hang back (preferably out of sight a la Fiddlesticks, in the jungle or somthing.) Watch the teamfight, as soon as enemy CC is blown, dive the carry.
Noctune has an assassin's kit in that if he gets into a slugout with a carry, that carry is screwed provided Noc built damage. Screwed fairly quickly I might add.

For (probably) everyone in this thread, assassin (damage) Noctune is likely just fine, preferable even, to tanky Noctune. I personally feel a decent compramise would be to build Wriggles, Hexdrinker, Phage, brutalizer, then either finish items or build bloodthirster as game requires.

Pros likely don't play noc this way because they play against other pros. And pro players aren't going to panic and use all their CC just because the rest of the team initiated, they are going to be smart enough to save some for Noctune, even if he was just seen a whole lane away.

Same deal with leblanc, lee sin, and shaco, as well as most other assassins. They capitalize on enemy screw-ups meaning they are totally viable at anything shy of pro level play. Assassins who see pro play are assassins who don't need to be played as assassins. Like Xin, lee sin, irelia, or noctune.


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Griftrix

Senior Animation Engineer

10-12-2012
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastilico View Post
I think a lot of people expect an assassin in LoL to be a champion with many of the following qualities:

1) Strong mechanic for diving a carry
2) Powerful, Scaling burst
3) Strong Chase or CC to prevent escape
4) A defensive mechanic designed to hard counter certain types of champions
5) A good escape mechanism
6) Powerful snowballing mechanic (Think Kat's Passive)

I think people expect assassins to perform at least some of the following jobs in a game:

1) Have powerful early ganks for farming champions or keeping a particular champ down
2) Pick off lone champions
3) Kill the enemy carry in a team fight
4) Act as a Clean-Up Crew in team fights
1) check
2) probably doesn't have this
3) check
4) I disagree with this one. When did assassin mean defense? (and also, W, so check)
5) I also disagree here because if you have a dead target, then you have completed your job
6) To me, this seems like a mass murderer, not an assassin. Or in LoL terms, perhaps a carry. A carry kills the whole team, right?

1) check
2) check
3) check
4) This one all depends if he's alive. IMO, if an assassin is killing the ADC and dies, mission accomplished. If he is alive, then check here too.