Is playing as Jax in Dom a moral issue?

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GrignardTS

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawNuff View Post
Anyone that has played the game for any length of time knows that Melees get better abilities/steroids than ranged DPS. This does not affect the fact that Ranged DPS are the top scaling class in the game, bar none.

Some factors to consider:
1.) CCs. Two types: hard and soft.

2.) Itemization: A ranged carry is generally immune to group focus unless out of position.

3.) Damage on Paper =/= damage in a game.
TL;DR
1) CC for an ADC = death
CC for a tankydeep = I loose some DPS

2) Immune to group focus? A bit idealistic....
Is it out of position when Talon/Rengar/Khz stealth on top of you and global you?

3) Absolutely true. Which is why I ended the argument with "Jax has carry level damage" and not "Jax has more damage than ADCs" because he does have carry level damage. Look at the math.

You keep mentioning kiting. Slow this, kite that. How do you kite Jax that has a 700 range gap close on a 6s/4s CD and keeps his slow on you constantly? Sure, you'll get away once for a few seconds. Maybe even twice. But trust me, he'll stick to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawNuff View Post
TL;DR
Late game, if I could protect 2 ranged carries, I would easily take them over 2 Jaxs.
I think a squad of 3 late game Jax could probably win a 3v5 tbh.


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IIxeenoxII

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Smart play + build counters jax (having range and hard CC doesnt hurt either) I played brand bot and beat jax early/mid/late game last night. Why? because I built rylais (to kite) and land my stun which equaled to free dmg. Frozen Heart for CDR/passive/mana/armor. He can't outpush me with W, E combo on minion waves. If he attempts a leap strike he risks getting stunned, and again he takes free dmg. By late game it took 3 to take me down.

Jax' play is predictable, If you see him start spinning his lamp post you know a leapstrike is imminent. So if you notice this, walk away and use ranged attacks or prepare for a fight (not 1v1 obv) unless you have enough burst outright to take him out.


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Emeraldw

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Eh? Those two heroes have been explicitly demonstrated to beat Jax in bot lane. We are talking Sauron level Jax.
You'll have to explain how they do then. Because Kiting Jax can be very difficult and I know they cannot out-duel him.


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otirruborez

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawNuff View Post

TL;DR
Late game, if I could protect 2 ranged carries, I would easily take them over 2 Jaxs.
this is the main reason i like jax better. he does not need to be protected.

while the adc is trying to kite and run away from derps, jax is clowning fools.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orphane View Post
The hell
is
this
build
Expensive.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by otirruborez View Post
this is the main reason i like jax better. he does not need to be protected.
I like protecting things, so long as there aren't flipping three of them.


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brownbruiser

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Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardTS View Post
Arguably, Jax is currently considered the only hyper carry this game has. There is a reason for this.

I meant scale in terms of overal power and impact, not straight dps. Although I'm sure if you compared them side by side. Actually, let's do that.

Let's say a baseline AD carry. Jax vs. Graves.

Builds:
Jax
Boots, Rageblade, Gunblade, Trinity, Rylai's, Atmas

Graves
Boots, Sanguine, PD, IE, LW, Defensive item

Assume:
L18
No ramp of skills (Rageblade), So it's max dps. This is more for ease of math.
No resistances.
No masteries or runes.

Jax:
as 1.938244
ad 267.5
ap 273
crit 33%

Leap: 543.8 damage
Empower: 343.8 damage
Ult: 411.1 damage every 4th attack
Sheen: 117.5 damage

Graves:
as 1.276875 or 1.714375 (under quickdraw)
ad 321.8
crit 55%

Buckshot: 630 (maximum assumed)
Collateral Dmg: 702

In 30 seconds:
Jax does:
10 Empowers
5 Leaps
58 AAs
14 Ultimate procs
15 Sheen procs

Total damage:
34309.85

Total dps:
1143.661667

In 30 seconds:
Graves does
41 AAs
4 Buckshots
2 Quickdraws
1 Collateral Damage

Total damage:
27300.685

Total dps:
910.0228333

The assumptions of no ramping and no resistances favor jax's dps, but the difference of 200 dps between the two should make it clear. Jax has carry level damage. You can say Jax has a built DPS item over Graves, but with 4 pure dps items already on Graves, you would be crazy to not build at least 1 pure defensive item in a final Dominion item build.

this post is so bad/flawed its not even funny


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DevlJoe

Senior Member

10-09-2012

For me, you're allowed to play jax until you actually get good at him, then you're just being mean.


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ShawNuff

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10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by otirruborez View Post
this is the main reason i like jax better. he does not need to be protected.

while the adc is trying to kite and run away from derps, jax is clowning fools.
Thats fine. Safe picks like that can and do work. In Mid elo dominion, tanky DPS is grossly overvalued however. Its worth picking a comp that can protect a ranged carry and if your ADC player is flexible you have a variety of comp options. Vulnerable carries can often do more damage or bring more utility (Koggywoggy/Varus/Ashe/Twitch/MF), but more mobile carries like Vayne/Ezreal/Tristana don't need quite the level of babysitting. If your team loves their tanky DPS and wants to fight fights "balls to the walls", then a carry like Ezreal will be extremely strong (atm, just pick Ezreal, he's OP, but nerf incoming) since he can generally take care of himself. On the other hand, Kog does so much damage you don't really need a whole ton of damage on the rest of the team, but you do need to devote a lot of resources to making sure he can safely do his damage or else he will get dove too easily, and your gambit on power over safety will fall flat.


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ShawNuff

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10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardTS View Post
1) CC for an ADC = death
CC for a tankydeep = I loose some DPS

2) Immune to group focus? A bit idealistic....
Is it out of position when Talon/Rengar/Khz stealth on top of you and global you?

3) Absolutely true. Which is why I ended the argument with "Jax has carry level damage" and not "Jax has more damage than ADCs" because he does have carry level damage. Look at the math.

You keep mentioning kiting. Slow this, kite that. How do you kite Jax that has a 700 range gap close on a 6s/4s CD and keeps his slow on you constantly? Sure, you'll get away once for a few seconds. Maybe even twice. But trust me, he'll stick to you.



I think a squad of 3 late game Jax could probably win a 3v5 tbh.
1.) Have fun running past a good front line to stunlock the ADC. On the other hand, Jax is the front line.

2.) The concept is called pealing. Anyone that gets past the front line is the main target for CC. unless the enemy ADC is vulnerable. Also, how do you global someone?

3.) Your math is bad because you use a sub-optimal build. Now Jax generally scales well enough that eventually even the most facepalm builds start doing good damage, but still.

About Kiting.
Just walking away from someone while autoattack canceling is kiting... all by itself. Add in any slows you may have, and you decrease the enemy's effectiveness. I know Jax's CDs, but your numbers assume that he attacks exactly as often as his attackspeed says, which never happens in tanky DPS vs ADC unless the ADC is rooted/stunned. Doing this perfectly is really hard to do especially when your attackspeed gets higher, and you can actually do this on tanky DPS as well to reduce the effectiveness of the enemy's kiting. The other factor is animations. Ranged carries generally have decent AA animations that can be canceled fairly early (watch Chaox Corki play) and their abilities don't usually ruin their ability to output damage at their attackspeed level (a couple exceptions). Animations vary from champ to champ, Irelia having a decent one, and Wukong having a horrible one (imo), with Jax somewhere in between.

Janna/Nunu/Malphite/Jayce/(Kayle or Vayne or Ezreal) will easily easily easily wreck your 3 man Jax team.