@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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MathMage

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicyPickles7 View Post
Yes, you made that distinction.. and then failed to understand why it still appeals to women.
You literally JUST made the distinction between buff and bodybuilder yourself, in terms of attractiveness to females. Now that I've pointed out that this distinction is incorporated into my argument, you're backtracking so fast you're leaving rubber tire tracks on the floor in front of you. At least TRY to be consistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicyPickles7 View Post
and "token" examples. I could give you about 15 guys.. same with 15 girls who don't make sense. Garen has the weirdest shoulders ever. Why? to be BUFF. Let's not push this OMG FEMALES SO MUCH MORE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.
You can't give me 15 sexualized guys, or even 5 sexualized guys. You could maybe give me 10 guys who are absurdly muscular, if I'm feeling generous...which just plays into the points I've made previously.

More generally, you seem to be under the delusion that I'm not allowed to talk about only one problem in champion art design if other problems exist, which is pure logical fallacy. You also seem to suffer from the misconception that I haven't talked about issues with male champions before. Allow me to quickly correct that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
Hey, guys? Guys? Can we clear up just one thing here?

A lot of the male champions look stupid too. Kassadin's muscles aren't just ripped, they're WTF ridiculous. Tryndamere is a ****ing brick. Traditional Lee Sin has the same stupid upside-down pyramid torso that Tryndamere's old skin had. Varus is randomly naked down to where I'd expect his uppermost pubic hair to start showing through, if he still has any after what happened to him.

That doesn't mean the female champions don't have an issue with sexualization. It means BOTH genders have problems that should be fixed.

So can the feminists please stop arguing that the male skins have no significant problems? And can the Riot apologists please stop arguing that because male skins are also sexualized (debatable), that this somehow makes everything okay because both genders are equally badly portrayed?

Thanks.


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Mantis

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Senior Member

10-08-2012

I agree with many of the points the Op has made, however, there seem to be some contradictions. I have issue with his/her use of females who are nearly human but not males in your argument, that he/she argues that the posture of males makes them not sexualized when he/she does not include this when talking about females, and that he/she claims that Lux is a sexualized champion and Twisted Fate is not.

The op includes Cassiopeia and Zyra in his/her argument but does not include Brand. Brand is just about as human as Cass when you look at their lore, they were both once human and now are monsters of a sort. Brand, Zyra, and Cass show just about as much skin and skintight clothing (just about all of it). Brand should therefore be included in the list of sexualized male champions or Zyra and Cass should not.

The Op argues that because many of the male champions/skins do not strike sexy poses that they are not sexualized. There are a number of males which have just as much if not more skin exposed than many female champions or skins. These skins include Classic Lee Sin, Traditional Lee Sin, Muay Thai Lee Sin, Viscero Xin Zhao, and Ruthless Pantheon. The Op claims that these are not sexualized because they are not in positions or move in ways which make them look sexy. The same can be said about some of the female champions the Op has claimed are sexualized. Some of these champions would include Akali, Ashe, Nidalee, and Riven. Especially in game none of these champions present themselves as being sexy in their animations, the way they move. I would argue that all of these of these champions including the male champions/skins I listed are sexualized. This doesn't change the fact that there are many more sexualized female champions, but I do not think the Op can write off that there are more sexualized male champions than just Varus.

I assume that the Op consider's Lux's new splash art to be sexualized, why is it then that Twisted Fate is not sexualized? Neither of these champions is wearing anything that would really oversexualize them nor do they have animations that do so. Both of these champions have splash arts which show off their bodies by the way they are posing. Take a look at Jack of hearts Twisted Fate, as well as his soon to be splash art. Both of these have a lot of attention directed at TF's legs much in the same way Lux's new splash art emphasizes her breasts, waist, and legs. However, I believe that neither of these are sexualized solely on how they are portrayed in their splash art. Frankly both of these champions needed better sexier splash arts because the splash art they had previously was just not very good.

The Op makes a number of good claims and has good evidence to back them up. I would just tweak the numbers slightly and try to show as little bias as possible when labeling a champion as sexualized or not.


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Saerkhiya

Member

10-08-2012

Why do we achieve so hard for artificial equity when all the collective player-base wants are more Bunny Riven equivalent skins? I mean, seriously, there will be a handful of people that will ultimately notice the equity and about one fourth of them will actually care. In the end, we'll be drowning in arctic skins and sales that remind us of how much we miss the pageantry of sexualized roles.

I mean, next thing we know, we're going to have to pander to the crowd that wants for 5th Age costumes.

... Okay, I do want more 5th Age costumes. Continue on this trend. I'll make my case for flamboyance with tons of relevant numbers shortly.


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AbiwonKenabi

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saerkhiya View Post
Why do we achieve so hard for artificial equity when all the collective player-base wants are more Bunny Riven equivalent skins? I mean, seriously, there will be a handful of people that will ultimately notice the equity and about one fourth of them will actually care. In the end, we'll be drowning in arctic skins and sales that remind us of how much we miss the pageantry of sexualized roles.

I mean, next thing we know, we're going to have to pander to the crowd that wants for 5th Age costumes.

... Okay, I do want more 5th Age costumes. Continue on this trend. I'll make my case for flamboyance with tons of relevant numbers shortly.
It's not that we'll "miss" the sexualized roles. They'll still be there, but so will a variety of other archetypes. That's really what this thread is all about.

And yes, more 5th Age skins please.


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The Cpt America

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
Why do girls have to prove that they're girls, but guys don't
i'll wait
I have to prove I am a guy? Since when? Like i said in my post - I have never gone around saying "I AM A GUY!!!!!!!!!!" - that is stupid.

However i am going to go out on a hunch and make your question more complex: What I think you are asking is: Why is it that when I say I am a girl, I have to prove it - but guys do not?

Reverting back to my original post: Why are you even stating you are a girl? in a video game, gender has NO impact on game play. Nobody cares. Get over it. The more underlying reason is that statistically, not many girls play league of legends. The ratio of male to female players in any game is massively disproportionate. The amount of guys POSING as girls, however, is pretty damn common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obzidian View Post
Playing solo in rankeds. My team decides to get on Skype during champ select to better coordinate. I know this *could* be a problem for me, but I get on Skype anyway. I want to work with my team to the best of my ability.

First comment, "Are you a girl or a prepubescent boy?" -- Why does it even matter? I ignore it and talk about the game.
Other comments that come from the same guy
hey cute voice little boy girl
so are you cute?
accept my request and play with me love!

Now, this is pretty mild. I'll admit I play with some awesome people I randomly met in League and my gender has never been an issue with them and I love playing with them. However, there's also been some not so mild harassment. And that doesn't include the misogyny you encounter when people assume they're just playing with a group of guys. (Cannot count how many times I've heard someone try to insult another player by insinuating they are a girl or feminine).

Why *does* my gender matter when playing? Why does it have to be commented on? Because random folks I play with force it to be commented on.

The answer isn't "Don't get on Skype" or "Don't mention your gender". The answer is for people to STOP HARASSING WOMEN PLAYERS. Those of you who already don't, Great job! You're a decent human being. Keep doing that. Those of you who do, STOP. Its that simple. That's how we make gender not be an issue in our community. And if you really want to make a difference, no matter your gender, when you see gender (or sexuality or race) harassment going on, call the person out and let them know its not acceptable.

And the simple answer to diversity in champions is for there to be more diverse champions created.
First of all, you chose to get on skype with random people. Without responding to each one of your points because I am in a game at the moment - he is making fun of you. If you were a kid (young boy) he would make fun of you. If you had a high pitch voided, he would make fun of you. If (and in this case) you are a girl, he will make fun of you. He is looking to be an ass hole. You purposely ignored the fact that he was also looking to make fun of kids and just chose the feminist approach of "he is only attacking me because i am a girl."

Wrong.

He was being an ass hat, that is as simple as that. You are choosing to see an argument that does not exist. (Judging by how upset you are at what he said, he succeeded. He enjoys (because hes an ass hat) your responses to him).


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monopolyman001

Senior Member

10-08-2012

I think having something like a big cyclops cave women with a club who is a jungler/bruiser role would be excellent!


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis View Post
The op includes Cassiopeia and Zyra in his/her argument but does not include Brand. Brand is just about as human as Cass when you look at their lore, they were both once human and now are monsters of a sort. Brand, Zyra, and Cass show just about as much skin and skintight clothing (just about all of it). Brand should therefore be included in the list of sexualized male champions or Zyra and Cass should not.
What about this...
http://www.gamersbook.com/repository..._large.jpg?v=0
...makes you want to **** Brand? He's a molten man, not a male model. I entirely agree with the OP's decision to leave him out of the accounting, but were I to include him, I definitely would NOT put him in the 'sexualized' category.

Compare Brand to Battle Bunny Riven. Which is the obviously sexualized image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis View Post
The Op argues that because many of the male champions/skins do not strike sexy poses that they are not sexualized. There are a number of males which have just as much if not more skin exposed than many female champions or skins. These skins include Classic Lee Sin, Traditional Lee Sin, Muay Thai Lee Sin, Viscero Xin Zhao, and Ruthless Pantheon. The Op claims that these are not sexualized because they are not in positions or move in ways which make them look sexy. The same can be said about some of the female champions the Op has claimed are sexualized. Some of these champions would include Akali, Ashe, Nidalee, and Riven. Especially in game none of these champions present themselves as being sexy in their animations, the way they move. I would argue that all of these of these champions including the male champions/skins I listed are sexualized. This doesn't change the fact that there are many more sexualized female champions, but I do not think the Op can write off that there are more sexualized male champions than just Varus.
Here's a simple explanation of this:

Topless girl is USUALLY SEXUAL
Topless guy is NOT USUALLY SEXUAL
So we have to consider whether the topless guy is posing like a male stripper or a male warrior to determine whether his skin is sexualized. We don't have to do the same if a female champion is flashing her ***s at the world.

Also, OP includes Nidalee and Riven due to French Maid and Battle Bunny skins. I don't necessarily agree that obvious fanservice skins make the whole champion fanservice, but she's not employing a double standard based on pose there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis View Post
I assume that the Op consider's Lux's new splash art to be sexualized, why is it then that Twisted Fate is not sexualized? Neither of these champions is wearing anything that would really oversexualize them nor do they have animations that do so. Both of these champions have splash arts which show off their bodies by the way they are posing. Take a look at Jack of hearts Twisted Fate, as well as his soon to be splash art. Both of these have a lot of attention directed at TF's legs much in the same way Lux's new splash art emphasizes her breasts, waist, and legs. However, I believe that neither of these are sexualized solely on how they are portrayed in their splash art. Frankly both of these champions needed better sexier splash arts because the splash art they had previously was just not very good.
TF is showing off his legs? Really? Compare his splash to Fiora's for an actual example of showing off assets.

I assume Lux made the list because her new skin has a broken back.


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Meatsp1n

Senior Member

10-08-2012

OP,

Problem solved:


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Karolina

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cpt America View Post
First of all, you chose to get on skype with random people. Without responding to each one of your points because I am in a game at the moment - he is making fun of you. If you were a kid (young boy) he would make fun of you. If you had a high pitch voided, he would make fun of you. If (and in this case) you are a girl, he will make fun of you. He is looking to be an ass hole. You purposely ignored the fact that he was also looking to make fun of kids and just chose the feminist approach of "he is only attacking me because i am a girl."

Wrong.

He was being an ass hat, that is as simple as that. You are choosing to see an argument that does not exist. (Judging by how upset you are at what he said, he succeeded. He enjoys (because hes an ass hat) your responses to him).
That's not the only case. Most often than not the result will not be someone trying to make fun of you, it will be someone trying to hit on you, someone trying to patronize you or someone underestimating you.


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Ensig

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
Nah, you're not sexist, its just the way society has conditioned us on gender roles

We perceive feminine clothing as denoting weakness, so a male in female clothing is weakening their own position
dude your not smart, stfu plz