@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Nyarii

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
Crude fanservice on serious skins might appeal to the crudest elements of the male gamer demographic, but that's far from saying it's the best way to appeal to the male demographic as a whole. I prefer Diana's default skin to her Valkyrie skin, Syndra's Justicar skin to her default skin, Caitlyn's Arctic Warfare skin to her default and Officer skins, etc--because those skins look like actual champions, not pinup models in champion costumes. And it should be fairly obvious from these examples that making serious champion skins doesn't mean getting rid of attractive female champions.

Does that mean we should never have a pinup skin? Not at all. I can deal with the existence of obvious fanservice skins like Kitty Cat Kat, Battle Bunny Riven, and Heartseeker Vayne. But the prevalence of impossible waists, broken backs, boobs and butts all out of proportion with the rest of the body, and pinup poses on the default models of supposedly serious champions pisses me off.
I agree 100% with this earlier post. Also, in case it was missed in the 200+ pages of crazy long thread, below was another good post [albeit from another, similar thread]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obzidian View Post
Dear Kades and those who would like to continue to have a serious discussion on the topic,

Have you noticed a trend in the posts in this thread? I have.
Click to read! Well worth it.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-07-2012

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Originally Posted by Dark Jurai View Post
Actually, I guess Kayle falls into the Samus category. But more champions like that would be cool.
I agree. I gave a little nod to Samus in my blurb about Kayle, and why she is awesome


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Dreampod

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Hey Parrot, while you are here addressing this important issue I was wondering whether you might comment on a related subject.

LoL is extremely underrepresented with champions of a human skin tone other than white or pink (no weaseling out of answering by saying 'Runeterra isn't earth this time!). We have 34 champions that appear Caucasian, 4 that appear Asian, and 1 might pass as a very very pale African or Pacific Islander. Is it on your rader (as an art department and personally) the need to offer up champions that represent the full diversity of skin tone and appearance as your player base?

I know that some champions like Olaf need to be pale to play up the champion concept properly but why couldn't someone like Jayce have been done as a black man? I think he would have looked amazing as a kick-ass bald black dude and by doing that it would also have helped ameliorate 'haven't I seen this before' issue that having Jayce, Darius, and Draven all come out one after another created. It really is ok to use people of colour as characters in the game without using the basest stereotypes for them (I'm looking at you Diablo 3 Witchdoctor).


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

10-07-2012
49 of 61 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreampod View Post
Hey Parrot, while you are here addressing this important issue I was wondering whether you might comment on a related subject.

LoL is extremely underrepresented with champions of a human skin tone other than white or pink (no weaseling out of answering by saying 'Runeterra isn't earth this time!). We have 34 champions that appear Caucasian, 4 that appear Asian, and 1 might pass as a very very pale African or Pacific Islander. Is it on your rader (as an art department and personally) the need to offer up champions that represent the full diversity of skin tone and appearance as your player base?

I know that some champions like Olaf need to be pale to play up the champion concept properly but why couldn't someone like Jayce have been done as a black man? I think he would have looked amazing as a kick-ass black dude and by doing that it would also have helped ameliorate 'haven't I seen this before' issue that having Jayce, Darius, and Draven all come out one after another created.
I agree. More diversity needed. Workin' on it. Srsly.


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Kyryck

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogonk View Post
End result of this thread for me: greatly increased respect for IronStylus.

Still think Riot is a male dominated company making a misogynist product (unintentionally, perhaps), but I like this guy. I think he's on the level.
A perfect example of just how absurd many of the posts in this thread are. Of how many people just blindly jump up and down, shrieking hysterically about the cause of the moment, bitterly complaining about how sexist Riot is (even unintentionally, right?) and how they're 'misogynist'.

Puh-leeze.

The comments elsewhere about Lux's new splash art somehow being 'over-sexualized'? If I didn't know it was just mindless drones jumping on the latest hot-button, I'd accuse anybody who thinks Lux's new splash art of being 'over-sexualized' of a pedophile. She displays youthful exuberance and joy. If you're interpreting more into it, maybe YOU are the issue and not the art.

As for people complaining about female champions showing skin: yeah, there are quite a few. Yeah, Riot could certainly do a better job in representing a more varied female experience. Of course, they seem to be trying to do that, as IronStylus and his comments (and actions behind the scenes) demonstrate.

Seriously, this is an issue that has been discussed to death and you've already achieved your desired result: Riot is aware of the issue and trying to address it in a way that keeps everybody happy. I'm sure people feel as though they're somehow 'earning points' or something by continuing to jump up and down and point and stare and shriek about how those baaaaaaad over-sexualized champions are somehow degrading women's experiences in life as a whole and how magically removing all traces of *** from the female champions will mystically make the world and game a utopia or something. Christ.

As an aside, it's particularly funny to see all the people screaming about how females are over-sexualized then commenting how it would be nice to see male champions treated the same way. Like it somehow makes it better if the male champs were drawn in the same way. That the rapid concerns over this vanish when it's something that THEY want to see.

All in all it seems that people should thank IronStylus for his efforts and simply leave well enough alone. Results are not going to be achieved in a day or even a month (though one could argue that changes are already being seen in champs like Diana or Leona) so really, what is to be gained by continually criticizing Riot for this? Yeah, yeah, we know you think there's a an issue. They've acknowledged it and said they'll fix it. Give them a bloody chance to do so and perhaps refrain from this absurdly continual fixation on ***. As I noted, the thread says a whole lot more about the people who are criticizing and noticing and being affected by such 'sexualization' in a constant manner than it says about Riot or other customers who treat the matter as something that is being addressed and giving Riot time to do so.

In short, continual *****ing accomplishes nothing on this matter. Yes, we know you're filled with righteous outrage over the absolutely horrid and socially degrading characterization of females in the game. Oh the horror! Perish the thought that boobs or butts affect your puritan view of the world. Equally horrific to think that other people aren't as 'socially enlightened' as you and might like seeing such things! They're causing the destruction of the female gender!

Now, resume jumping up and down and shrieking about how Riot are evil and misogynist and how the game would be so much better if every female were clad in nun habits because then there'd be none of that eeeeevil *** stuff trying to lead everybody astray.


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Depraving

Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket Tibbers View Post
I don't think female players actually care if a certain champ has big breasts or not. I mean look at the media. On tv, most actresses have big breasts or at least try to convey that they do. Do women still watch TV? YES. Look at movies. same here. Do women watch movies? YES Same with magazines, ect,ect. So the problem here is not how women are portrayed in the game i personally enjoy champion art that makes women look like well, women. There are many factors in why females don't play LoL or other games in general. First of all, LoL is a competitive game and lets face it the community is very competitive. Trying not to be sexist here, but males are just more prone to competition because of our elevated testosterone levels. That is not to say that all women shy away from competition. Secondly, the competitive atmosphere creates a sort of hostility towards new players and with more and more smurfs, there are definitely challenges with entering into the game. Riot is not at fault what so ever if the females aren't attracted to this game. It simply is the nature of the game. Look at world of warcraft, maplestory, and even sims for example. Those games have a solid female player base because the nature of the games are mostly cooperative and non competition oriented. Last but not least, why are you looking for more females to play? What difference does it make when your teammates or enemies are female? Unless you want to find your soul mate in the game or something, gender doesnt really matter. If females dont want to play this game, its up to them. Dont bash on the riot developement team because making women actually look like women is not wrong at all. The people who complain about " OMG BOOBS" just want to show that they "respect" women on the forums. I also respect women, but at the same time i wont deny that i like curves. If every female champion was flat chested, now THAT would be wrong because thats not a true depiction of women in real life. Women have breasts get used to it. And if a champion has breasts, then its a female. All in all, petitioning to riot to attract more women into the game is in itself sexist.
lol for one just because women are portrayed in the media that way, doesn't mean all of us women approve of it or like being portrayed as *** objects. It's how it is at this point, but it's not to say we enjoy it. It's not exactly fun when you're reminded over and over that the 'ideal' woman has double Ds and a 20 inch waist. Women don't naturally get to look like Barbi. It's just not how it works. And so it has spawned a whole industry of plastic surgery and whatever else so some women can strive to achieve such ideals. I mean there are ideals for men as well, if you look at the cover of GQ and things. The point is these aren't the average men and women. Do we still buy the magazines, watch the movies, play the video games, etc? Sure, doesn't mean we enjoy the standard.

Secondly, women are very competitive and there are probably a lot more females playing the games than you know. We generally don't go into the game saying I'M A GIRL. Whenever I play, most players assume I'm a guy. Sometimes I'll correct them if they refer to me as 'he' or whatever but most of the time I just let it go, I mean I'm only playing with the person for 30 minutes anyways, it's not going to matter to them. And the point of the characters not all looking like strippers is being you're being that character in the game. If your point is that it shouldn't matter, then why buy skins? You're buying the personality that goes with it. You don't get super teemo unless you think he's pretty damn cute with that cape.

And you even said it yourself, you like your curvy girls so you're happy with the artworkand it'd be a problem if they made flat-chested women (which by the way, you do know bras come in cup A sizes too, yea? They're still women even if they don't have huge chests). Well, some of us who play, don't really want to play female characters who look like they just got out of the playboy mansion. It's just about having variety and catering to different tastes. I'm glad they overall suit your tastes, this thread was merely pointing out that there should be more options for female characters.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Beyond some minimal tweaks I might personally make, I'm in love with her splash art. Sorry. I think it's extremely dynamic and even playful as Lux should be. Some anatomy issues aside I'm very fond of it.
I, overall, like the new Lux splash as well, but those anatomy issues are so jarring that they detract substantially from my enjoyment of it. It's legitimately difficult for me to look at the splash. Regardless, I wouldn't classify it as "sexualized."

As for the new Soraka look, I think you guys did a fantastic job. My only concerns are 1) her model is just a little bit bigger than I would've expected, and 2) I'm pretty sure her Infuse has a delay on it it didn't used to have, which seriously affects functionality. Am I hallucinating or did the change actually nerf her, ala what happened to Xerath's ult?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Quoting myself.. el oh el..

By the by, my art director mains Miss Fortune and I main Leona. We get along swimmingly.

VARIETY!
Wait, is this a hint about Sunbathing Leona?


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Dreampod

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I agree. More diversity needed. Workin' on it. Srsly.
Yay! That is all I really wanted to hear. I know timelines for development are WAY longer than most players recognize so I'm looking forward to when you guys start fulfilling these desires.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreampod View Post
Hey Parrot, while you are here addressing this important issue I was wondering whether you might comment on a related subject.

LoL is extremely underrepresented with champions of a human skin tone other than white or pink (no weaseling out of answering by saying 'Runeterra isn't earth this time!). We have 34 champions that appear Caucasian, 4 that appear Asian, and 1 might pass as a very very pale African or Pacific Islander. Is it on your rader (as an art department and personally) the need to offer up champions that represent the full diversity of skin tone and appearance as your player base?

I know that some champions like Olaf need to be pale to play up the champion concept properly but why couldn't someone like Jayce have been done as a black man? I think he would have looked amazing as a kick-ass bald black dude and by doing that it would also have helped ameliorate 'haven't I seen this before' issue that having Jayce, Darius, and Draven all come out one after another created. It really is ok to use people of colour as characters in the game without using the basest stereotypes for them (I'm looking at you Diablo 3 Witchdoctor).
I wholeheartedly agree that Jayce would have been freakin' awesome as a black guy. In my opinion, Piltover is the perfect city for racial diversity.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-07-2012

still waiting on battlebunny pantheon