@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mogonk

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
So, IronStylus, can I restate something I said earlier in this thread and got buried?

I have an important legitimate question, and I don't mean to disagree with IronStylus, I just want some insight on this:

Why is Sejuani wearing very little in the frozen tundras of the Freljord unacceptable to some people, but Tryndamere forgoing a shirt in the frozen tundras of the Freljord is A-OK?
Trynd isn't from Freljord.

Also, there's a difference between going shirtless and wearing a pushup bra. It's a costume clearly designed to show off cleavage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless Kung Fu View Post
In the same breath, we - yes, females too - want fit, attractive females in the same vein. The only dissenting parties are those entrenched in sensationalist feminism and their problem isn't with LoL or Riot's concept artists. Their problem is with society.
If you don't have a problem with society, I have a problem with you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerglinator

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogonk View Post
Trynd isn't from Freljord.

Also, there's a difference between going shirtless and wearing a pushup bra. It's a costume clearly designed to show off cleavage.
He lives in the Freljord as Ashe's husband...note the snowy backgrounds.

Also, don't try to pass Trynd off as not being intentionally sexy. Look at those abs, man. Or are you too distracted by the big glowing belt buckle which conveniently draws attention?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

YSRS

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-07-2012

@Iron Stylus, Do you think a Metal Theme could work really well as an avenue for a tough-style Female champ. i say metal theme in a similar way to which zyra is plant themed. So she would be absolutely covered in metal, perhaps an a boxy /crystalline style(different metals for different skins?) Or something like brand who is some kind of Flame Thing in a human form, She could be some sort of Metallic Spirit? From a meterorite? who joins in the league in return for assistance on returning her back ( i imagine bandle city could help with this.)

So yeah, any thoughts on Metal as a Theme?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

10-07-2012
40 of 61 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
[B]
Again, I expect that the response (if any) will be political or at least somewhat defensive. It was simply my main purpose to highlight the issues in red posts in terms of their evasion of addressing the true issues. I respect the reds that have posted in the spirit of what I believe was their best effort to be honest and helpful, but it does not point to the fact that there is a true issue of female sexualization here, and the arguments and follow-ups have fallen short of closing the loop on the topic. I know you want to sell a product, Riot, but you sound (and have historically behaved) pretty obviously similar to many other organizations when confronted with clear examples of sexism, regardless of your reasons and rationalizations. And to reiterate posts from before, I do truly love otherwise what you do as a game organization.
You're killing me with the numbers.. I'm an artist for god's sake..

So I won't be defensive, I'll be appropriately combative.. Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea how involved I've been in this conversation? A while. What have I done when I hear this feedback? I make a champion that incorporates all that feedback and I make it A REALLY BIG DEAL. Search "Embrace the Heresy" on google and see that hullabaloo. What do I do when I feel we've gone a bit astray? I talk to my producers, our art director, and my fellow concept artists. I take action. Not in a way that is imposing, rude, or invasive, but in a way that I hope challenges us to think a bit different and encourage our artists to keep crushing, to keep making amazing artwork.

Do I feel we are experiencing the same systemic issues with female champion representation as we have in the past? Absolutely. I find it problematic in that I always feel we can be more clever. We have not worked out all the kinks. We have champions and skins in the pipeline that still apply to particular pre-established trends. I'd like to change that and I'm actively working internally to seek balance where I can. What more would you like from me? What response would satiate you? Want me to do a seminar on this? Gladly.

Never have I EVER heard at Riot that we are motivated by *** to sell content. Do I think we on occasion reduce the solution to our challenges via the easy route of stripping down a character? Yes. As I said, I want us to be more clever. We can always remove, we can't always add.

True story: There's a champion in the pipeline which I saw a prime example to make into a strong, non-sexualized, and heroic female because it was fertile ground. It was initially supposed to be a guy. So what did I do? I made it. When are you going to see it? Probably not until next year. In the meantime you will indeed see some "sexy" here and there. That's that whole variety thing, and maybe some cases (which might irk players who want a bit more skin coverage) are situations that I couldn't come in on my grand steed of prudence to say, "hey! cover up that boob window!", because I HATE undermining an artists' confidence in their ability or creativity. I am not the lone voice on what is appealing. I should never dictate my views unless I take substantial issue with the content being created.

There are a thousand ways to solve a visual problem, it's a shame we get to choose only one. The artists deserve credit for the execution of their craft and honestly deserve better than to have someone like me harassing them every time someone shows a bit of skin in their design. We're going to make some champions who show skin. Not because of profit, not because of demand, not because we're all 14-year old boys who managed to get a hold of a video game company, but because in the right context it works. In the instances where it doesn't, my view is that holistically the champion is falling short. The solution is more lead time on development to really take advantage of how best we can make that champion and not have to resort to what's easy, which in my opinion is less clothing.

That said, there will always be Miss Fortunes and they will always be in your face with their giant.. ideas.. There will also always be Dianas who if you looked at even a portion of thier exposed neck they'd cut you down. As I've said, diversity and variety are key. We need more of it. Period.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SupahMonkiee

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunxlinger View Post
Fiora isn't naked but people are complaining. In fact all of her body is covered.
This was a joke intended for someone else. They have responded so this "discussion" is closed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vanra

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Since we're on the diversity subject anyhow, how about some blonds? Not counting surfer Singed or other skins, there's still only 3.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

lemonchief

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
So, IronStylus, can I restate something I said earlier in this thread and got buried?

I have an important legitimate question, and I don't mean to disagree with IronStylus, I just want some insight on this:

Why is Sejuani wearing very little in the frozen tundras of the Freljord unacceptable to some people, but Tryndamere forgoing a shirt in the frozen tundras of the Freljord is A-OK?
Edit: Shen'd I posted as to why it makes sense.

Someone proposed the argument that Sejuani is used to the cold (as it states she proved her mettle in the cold without much clothing to warm her), but the argument doesn't make sense in terms of her riding into battle. She is very lithe, so her musculature would do next to nothing to stop an axe or sword. She is literally wearing a leather bikini (and a helmet). On the other hand, Trynd is at least armored for about three fourths of his body and has enormously humongous, abnormally large, inhuman muscles that would probably go a long way in preventing a wound for doing serious harm to him.

In addition to this, someone made the excellent point of him being more of an ADC and Sej obviously being a tank, so she should be wearing more armor than him anyways.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Alice Twilight

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Ok I have another point to make, since our modern day concept of fantasy is so vastly different from how we thought even 20 years ago, a big step in changing female champions in league is make female champions with archetypes that are traditionally male. Not to say league hasn't done this in small ways. I can't believe I'm saying this but League needs a Saber. I'm not saying Fate/Stay night was able to pull this off incredibly well, but well it worked at least, for the most part.

Also and this is a little off topic, I'm a little sad at the lack of Irish archetypes in league, we really need a Cúchulainn in this game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

10-07-2012
41 of 61 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
So, IronStylus, can I restate something I said earlier in this thread and got buried?

I have an important legitimate question, and I don't mean to disagree with IronStylus, I just want some insight on this:

Why is Sejuani wearing very little in the frozen tundras of the Freljord unacceptable to some people, but Tryndamere forgoing a shirt in the frozen tundras of the Freljord is A-OK?
Because in my opinion Sejuani looks genuinely out of place. If I can so easily go into her splash art and change a) the color of her horn, hair, pig, and flail b) put her in a desert and she can be right at home, we've fallen short.

Also, I'm actually completely with you in that I think it's silly that Tryn is from the frozen wastes and he's sans shirt. I think even that Ashe is wearing thigh-highs is a bit silly. But, I am in no way going to go back and nuke what has become iconic and cool.

Regardless of that practicality, they're iconic. I think Sejuani is what I spoke about before. An easy solution which could have been more clever.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheRelicOfOwls

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSuzu View Post
I once also made a post concerning the lack of name diversity amongst female champions. I mean seriously, virtually all of the names are made female through the addition of a vowel sound. Here is every female champion:

Ending in "-ee" sound:
Ahri
Akali
Annie
Nidalee
Poppy
Sejuani

Ending in "-ah" sound:
Anivia
Cassiopeia
Diana
Fiora
Irelia
Janna
Karma
Katarina
Leona
Sarah (Miss Fortune)
Morgana
Orianna
Shyvana
Sona
Soraka
Syndra
Tristana
Zyra

That leaves us with:
Ashe
Caitlyn
Evelynn
Kayle
LeBlanc
Lulu
Lux
Sivir
Riven
Vayne

So in addition to the artwork, models, and whatnot, maybe you should work on renaming female champions.
maybe they're so abundant because the "ah" and "ee" ending sounds are almost universally recognized as feminine :3