@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Superbone1

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

You have some good points, but you are definitely overly biased as well.
One example: "Fiora’s skin tight outfit accentuates her ass."
Contrasted against: "Lee Sin is shirtless, and not hideously muscular. But his shirtlessness is more about him being a martial artist. It serves a practical function. It’s not about being seductive.
Ruthless Pantheon isn’t contorting his body in unnatural ways to show off his body. His physique is secondary to his battle prowess."

Fiora is a fencer. Loose clothes would get in the way when she is dashing about the battlefield. Armor would too. You want her to wear no clothes? Yes her clothes are tight, but they are that way to be functional. And she is completely clothed.

Oh, and Evelynn is blue. I think that pretty much clears that up.

Not a single male champion has a sexy skin? Ruthless Panth: the default skin has a shirt. This skin has none, simply to show off his body. Traditional Lee Sin: Same thing. Rugged Garen: Same thing. There aren't really any others, but disregarding those is the reason there aren't more - you don't like them, so why bother trying? Those are the manliest champs there are as far as I can tell. Maybe Jayce and Xin. Hired Gun Graves is already showing off his guns.

I don't have anything against girls playing games just like I don't have anything against guys playing games. I don't think gender matters. I happen to be dating a girl who plays Custom Hero Footies from WC3 almost religiously, and she did quite well at LoL the first time she played it. I was surprised she was so good not because she was a girl but because she picked it up so fast. Gender really isn't an excuse for anything, and identifying yourself as a gamer girl instead of just a gamer opens you up to scrutiny because the community then wonders why you feel the need to differentiate yourself. Are you a poor player? Should we be worried that you'll lose lane? It's like when I play SC with my Asian friends, I joke about being a white guy but it is actually because I know I will do poorly and they will crush me. I know it has nothing to do with race, but our interaction follows the stereotype and so I mention it as a joke.


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Maestro Kenteko

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Define "mess with" or "tamper".

We're going to go back into champions that need visual reworks to up fidelity but retain iconicism, but also to maintain or more heavily reinforce their theme. So, theoretically, if I were to rework Sivir I'd keep her that Wonder Woman/Xena style powerhouse that she is. I would keep her outfit minimal and I'd push her proportions more to make her as imposing and powerful as she should be.
Dark Valkyrie Diana was tampered with =(

I think it's more like changing Sona with a reduction of her assets or less cleavage for no reason other then "to better support women" or something.


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Malrock3

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Thanks for that bookmark, super helpful, just like the whole conversation. Gunna get some bagels right now so I'll check it out in a bit.

Mmmm.. bagels. Everyone likes bagels. The best part about bagels?

VARIETY! =D
Pretty sure you are fundamentally confused about what makes bagels awesome.... The correct answer here is Cream cheese. Bangles are nothing with out cream cheese!


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ZombieCakes

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro Kenteko View Post
Dark Valkyrie Diana was tampered with =(

I think it's more like changing Sona with a reduction of her assets or less cleavage for no reason other then "to better support women" or something.
Or to better support her. I personally wouldn't want a reduction for Sona, since I know there ARE women with breasts in that size. The thing is, most women like that don't LIKE their breasts to be the center of attention, rather, they prefer you don't point them out, because they cause insecurities. I know quite a few girls like this, it's not a funny topic to them at all. Sona can keep her huge breasts, that's not the issue, rather, I'm sure if someone were to have this type of body, they wouldn't be hanging out like this, maybe it works for Miss Fortune, due to her ****ty personality, but not Sona. Not to mention, both of their outfits imply that their nipples are either incredibly low, facing sideways or inexistant.


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Diab0Malandro NA

Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
Okay, okay, okay, one last post just to laugh at you.

You can see from the splash art that Fiora's lower body is in a left-foot-forward stance, facing the right edge of the screen. Without twisting, this posture would naturally result in Fiora's right shoulder being behind her left shoulder, meaning you would be looking at the front of her body.

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townn...review-300.jpg

The guy on the left in the linked image is in left-foot-forward stance. Notice how he's fencing with his left hand, because this stance naturally gives him a longer reach with his left hand than his right, because his left shoulder is also forward. To be fair, sword-and-dagger style can have the dagger in the forward hand, but a sword-and-dagger fighter would never put his dagger up behind his back, so that's a moot point.

Now notice how Fiora's right shoulder is ahead of her left shoulder in the splash art. That means she's had to twist her torso counterclockwise to achieve the desired effect. If she had no twist, her torso would face the camera, just like the guy in the above image.

You can also see that Fiora's hips are angled way down. Like 20 degrees forward or more. Yet her upper body is vertical. That means her torso is severely arched backwards, in defiance of all fighting postures around the world.

Now we look at Fiora's sword and see that it's held away from her body, and aimed even farther away from her torso's orientation. This runs counter to every martial posture in the world, and removes all power from her arm. If she has someone at swordpoint there, she couldn't even stab him properly because she can't put enough strength into the move.

So Fiora is twisted severely out of natural posture, back arched severely out of natural posture, she's fighting with the wrong hand, and she's got both her sword and her dagger in effectively unusable positions. That's an action pose, right? Right?

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I'm not even posting to refute you anymore. I'm just posting to laugh at you, because your ignorant denial of facts that don't suit your prejudice is so pathetic it's funny.

That doesn't mean it's sexist, look at Sejuani's pig, it's meant to be a boar, but it's actually a pig eating an onix or something similar, because boars have tusks, wich are actually alongated top front teeth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusk
while Sejuani's pig seems to either have some weird molars, or the horns of an half digested animal stick out of his mouth, most probably the second, since we all know pigs have terrible table manners and don't chew properly.

Back to topic, sure, make women in short clothing but at least make them serious, most women in LoL barely have the build to hold their arms in the air, or get themselves of the ground should they fall, how are they supposed to carry the team if they can't even carry themselves and their gear?
How are they supposed to go into to brutal combat with some of the fiercest warriors, beasts and abominations that roam the land. Women depicted seem like the type that would run waving their hands when they saw a spider, much less fight Urgot (and he's UP).

Make sexy female champions, but atleast do it right, make them look atheletic, make them look like real champions. Here are some examples to follow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR0gV...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDGwQFQJWWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTZttBPXxZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0DHH...feature=relmfu

I'd like to get female champions who look like that, like serious athletes with mobility and athleticism.


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Eleven View Post
Ever read a Spiderman comic? Any comic? Action poses in still art are routinely exagerated in order to convey the action in the scene. Comparing the pose to a real photo is completely pointless.
But this isn't an exaggerated action pose. It's a non-action pose.


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Xandrina

Senior Member

10-07-2012

This entire argument is not specific to just Riot. This is society as a whole. You cannot put the blame on Riot for following the guidelines of "sexual appeal" that society has set up for them.

Let's look at some facts.
The majority of men (and especially the age group that play games such as LOL) like women who are barely clothed, large breasted, and flirty. You cannot deny that. It is also an image that appeals to plenty of women, for a variety of reasons, whether they admit that or not. You even say you like some of the skins you are criticizing.

When it comes to sexual appeal for women, you can't compare that to men. Women, for the most part, are not drawn to men who are arching their backs in ridiculous ways and showing off their bodies. Look at the GQ magazine, for example. The men in GQ are normally grown men 30+ who are dressed in a professional manner. Their sexual appeal is far different from a woman on the cover of Maxim.

Men like women who are in their 20s with big breasts and fit bodies. The female champions portray that want. Women tend to like older men who have a list of accomplishments, and might be a little rough around the edges. Riot caters to that quite well. If your idea of a sexy man is Varus, you are probably in the minority. I do not know a single woman who prefers a purple-ish skinned man with flowing blond hair.

Men and women do not think alike. We are very different creatures who like very different things. I am not saying that everything above is 100% true for everyone. I am saying that is the MAJORITY, and the majority is what Riot caters to.

I do agree that I'd like to see more variety in skins, but that isn't because of the sexualness in them. It's because I like to have more to choose from.


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Grand Eleven

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
But this isn't an exaggerated action pose. It's a non-action pose.
As are thousands of poses that appear in comics for both male and female heroes. Reality is stretched and distorted to convey the action, drama, awe, or whatever intended emotion the artist is trying to convey in the panel.

Just because you're trying to redefine the name of the pose to "non-action" doesn't change that.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-07-2012

I'm back to troll


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Eleven View Post
As are thousands of poses that appear in comics for both male and female heroes. Reality is stretched and distorted to convey the action, drama, awe, or whatever intended emotion the artist is trying to convey in the panel.

Just because you're trying to redefine the name of the pose to "non-action" doesn't change that.
In general, though, characters geared towards sexually arousing male viewers focus on being off-balance, helpless, laying prone, or otherwise passive. This applies to both heterosexual men and straight men, by the way. This is why women in high-heels are traditionally attractive to men - the heels subconsciously make them more dependent on men because they can't engage in combat or running. In extreme cases, this leads to practices like foot-binding.

I think it is notable that a lot of female characters in LOL have the off-balance pose while I can't think of any male characters with an off-balance or prone pose. I don't think it's a problem in every case, but it's DEFINITELY a problem in Fiora's art.