@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Emailsúpport

Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
I'm sorry. I tried to be as objective as I could, and I know I failed in some areas. Pentakill Olaf was brought to my attention by my friend. She said she KNEW he was going to be used as a counterargument anytime a player beings up gender representation just like Tryndamere. And she's right. That night I logged in to see joke threads about Olaf making people feel bad about their bodies. The thing is, Olaf is not presented in a sexual fashion, and I will stand by my guns that he is not conventionally attractive. Gragas is morbidly obese, and there are fringe groups that are into that, but that doesn't mean I can honestly list him as a sexualized male champion.

Olaf and Tryndamere are also not conventionally attractive. Male beauty is not as defined as female beauty, and people's tastes tend to vary much more when it comes to me, but bodybuilders are usually never even brought up when people try to define the standard of male beauty. Personally, if you can have a career as a professional model, then we can talk about whether or not you are sexualized. Male models have a huge range of body types, but I have never seen a bodybuilder. That tells me that bodybuilding is just not sexy to a majority of people.

In either case. Neither Tryndamere nor Pentakill Olaf present themselves as a sexual conquest. Can people find them attractive? Sure! But do they look like they care? Not at all. Meanwhile, a vast majority of female champions seem to go out of their way to make sure people think they are sexy. It's all about presentation. Does that make sense?
You brought up Gragas again you dumb hoe.

GRAGAS IS NOT EVEN HUMAN, READ HIS FKN LORE, IS IT THAT HARD. HE HAS ROPES AROUND HIM AND LIGHTNING TATTOOS FOR CHRIST SAKE.


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Gunxlinger

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
I'm sorry. I tried to be as objective as I could, and I know I failed in some areas. Pentakill Olaf was brought to my attention by my friend. She said she KNEW he was going to be used as a counterargument anytime a player beings up gender representation just like Tryndamere. And she's right. That night I logged in to see joke threads about Olaf making people feel bad about their bodies. The thing is, Olaf is not presented in a sexual fashion, and I will stand by my guns that he is not conventionally attractive. Gragas is morbidly obese, and there are fringe groups that are into that, but that doesn't mean I can honestly list him as a sexualized male champion.

Olaf and Tryndamere are also not conventionally attractive. Male beauty is not as defined as female beauty, and people's tastes tend to vary much more when it comes to me, but bodybuilders are usually never even brought up when people try to define the standard of male beauty. Personally, if you can have a career as a professional model, then we can talk about whether or not you are sexualized. Male models have a huge range of body types, but I have never seen a bodybuilder. That tells me that bodybuilding is just not sexy to a majority of people.

In either case. Neither Tryndamere nor Pentakill Olaf present themselves as a sexual conquest. Can people find them attractive? Sure! But do they look like they care? Not at all. Meanwhile, a vast majority of female champions seem to go out of their way to make sure people think they are sexy. It's all about presentation. Does that make sense?
There are AS MANY(even less) Female champions who can become fashion models as male champions. And thats saying a lot cause in reality there are MUCH MUCH more female models than male ones.


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GaafGrohiik

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsúpport View Post
At first it was body variety... Now it's posing.
I know, right? Seems whenever OP gets met with actual logic the topics change.

I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself since this wall got buried and I think I've brought more logic to this argument than anyone else:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaafGrohiik View Post
Exactly. and this whole argument is invalid anyway because women don't play video games. This incendiary myth has been perpetuated far too long, and these stupid, drooling neckbeards haven't caught on yet.

I say make whatever kind of heroes you want, Riot. You want giant bouncing titties and badonks? Go for it. If your next hero is composed entirely of dicks, I wouldn't care at all. (inb4 1000x ZOMG *****JAMZZ OP threads). It's your game, your vision, your creative license to do whatever the **** you want.

So if there were some random She-Hulk playing LoL and she got mad that there were no girl characters should could pretend to be because they're not teated ogres like her - I say TOO ****ING BAD. You don't make this game. You don't work for Riot. You don't deal with thousand of requests for stupid, inconsequential things like they have to put up with, so you should have ZERO say in what they create. You don't go up to artists and critique their work because you don't like the way it makes you feel. If you don't like a champion - don't ****ing play it.

Design your own ****ing character, mail it in, and see if you can get subcontracted if you need a digital idol to make you feel better about yourself since you couldn't keep your hands off the Haagen Dazs in junior high.

This whole conversation is stupid. Any girl who would complain about this **** is a narcissistic slampig who thinks her halfwit opinion should have an impact on a game played by millions. Aww... Miss Fortune makes you feel inadequate because you're 26 and still in a training bra? "Time to fire the Ovary Cannons and pretend I've always been a feminist to get validation for me being unhappy with my body! I'm a woman and I need to be portrayed realistically in video games because if I'm not, that's sexist and wrong!"

If women want to be considered equal to men - which they SHOULD and should have for the last several decades - this whole "objectifying women in games is wrong" mindset needs to stop. I have never once, ONCE, in my 20 years of playing video games, ever read anything about men feeling emasculated by overly macho/athletic/suave heroes, that are almost ALL completely idealized.

Women complaining about that are simply people looking for something to complain about - and I don't care who you are - only look-at-me *******s pull that ****. Any woman who is actually secure with themselves, their body, their gender, and more than 50% functioning brain cells would look at this thread, laugh their asses off, and continue being actual people instead of brainless high school hipsters that think they have any idea about anything, ever.

**** 'em, Riot. Do whatever you want.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogonk View Post
Uh...who are you basing this idea of barbarians on? Conan the Barbarian?

Vikings are a "barbarian" archetype, and they wore heavy armor utilitizing chain mesh and metal plates. The goths who sacked Rome were using Germanic style scale armor and helmets.

I don't know what you're talking about here.
Do note that Arnold Schwarzenegger's Conan is pretty iconic in terms of what barbarians look like. If he wanted what you're talking about, he'd probably use the terms Viking or Pillager. The usage of the term barbarian connotes to default Diablo 2 barbarian, Conan the barbarian, He-man, etc.

Characters like those shun thick plates of steel and hiding their true form. They proudly bare their impressive body to show their superiority before leaping onto their foes. They don't care about avoiding harm like them ***** civilized folks. They care about "GRAAWWWR TO BATTLE!!!!!"


PS - yes, I am well aware that in D2, you can deck out your barbarian in full suit of armour. But that's purely for gameplay reasons. Even the assassins and mages are decked out in ridiculous amounts of armour.


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsúpport View Post
You have them already... Leona, Riven, Irelia, Kayle, Diana, Vayne, Akali, Riven.

In my opinion we need more monsters and that should be a higher priority than dýke style females.
Your crude, rude dismissal is also inaccurate, and your assumption that monsters vs. more serious female art design is a zero-sum game is laughable.


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BrownMooCow

Junior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Thanks for that bookmark, super helpful, just like the whole conversation. Gunna get some bagels right now so I'll check it out in a bit.

Mmmm.. bagels. Everyone likes bagels. The best part about bagels?

VARIETY! =D
Yes but, how are the bagels presented?

Are they all warm and toasty, smoothly covered in rich jam or cream cheese, just enough to make people want to buy them repeatedly and disregard that plain looking, day old bagel?

I mean, look at donuts, they can be plain looking with just some sugary glaze on em, but I bet people will still accept them more than that plain old looking bagel.

Please, consider the feelings of the bagels. After all, there is a world of bagels out there ready to be eaten.


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Dr Sloth MD

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by orc72 View Post
Lee Sin doesn't wear a orange/red full body robe. Maybe sorta in his acolyte skin, but that one is more just weird.

As for how they are presented, look at there default skins. Lee Sin is standing there shirtless in the rain all ricky martin style. Fiora is standing there fully clothed in a fencing pose. I fail to see how fiora is sexualized and lee sin is not from that presentation.
Lee Sin is shirtless, yes, but nothing about his pose is inherently sexy. He's doing a martial arts stance and his face says he's about ready to put his foot up somebody's ass.

Fiora is twisting around so you can get a good view of her "assets" and giving you the **** me eyes while doing it. You can see a similar pose on a real woman in an obviously sexual picture below for comparison. The fact of the matter is if you try to make that pose in real life you have to bend your back at an extreme angle, and there's no practical reason to do it beyond sexual appeal. It's certainly not a fighting stance.

While Lee might not be able to fight the way he's standing, it's a pose that shows his strength and dexterity. Fiora's only shows how far she can stick her ass out and spread her legs while still standing up.


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GaafGrohiik

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownMooCow View Post
Yes but, how are the bagels presented?

Are they all warm and toasty, smoothly covered in rich jam or cream cheese, just enough to make people want to buy them repeatedly and disregard that plain looking, day old bagel?

I mean, look at donuts, they can be plain looking with just some sugary glaze on em, but I bet people will still accept them more than that plain old looking bagel.

Please, consider the feelings of the bagels. After all, there is a world of bagels out there ready to be eaten.
this guy just won.


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Geekrose

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Dear GD, how the bloody hell did this guy get upvotes? Not five months ago the same thread would pop up and it'd get downvoted to oblivion.


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Harvester

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I didn't say hyper-sexualized, I made a goofy comment about proportions and read in-game which I have since said were dumb. I was in fact defending decisions that I actually didn't agree with but felt the team still deserved credit for pulling off a difficult champion.
Wow...
"You're a [stronger] man than I am son, and god damn do I respect you for it."
-General Namdraft from the webcomic Spacecat
That takes a lot of guts, even if you do now have a different view on your past actions. I truly believe that you care about your work now after reviewing how much time an effort you have put in to communicate your points to the community.

You have said that your views are not necessarily representative of the views of other rioters. If it isn't too much to ask, would you consider asking another Rioter whose job is relevant to the visual design of champions/skins? Even if they are unwilling to publicize their views on the subject, perhaps they could point out designs they respect and admire which are relevant to the topic at hand?