@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Ahrius

Senior Member

10-06-2012

The game's target audience is teenage to mid 20 men.

You are a minority.

Deal with it.


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chumbler

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahrius View Post
The game's target audience is teenage to mid 20 men.

You are a minority.

Deal with it.
Yes, nobody should ever pay attention to minority opinions. They should be completely ignored and put up with whatever is given to them. In fact, when they are harassed or otherwise mistreated, they should just say "Thank you sir, may I have another?"


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Zetasphere

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
First. thank you for being respectful. It's a breath of fresh air to see someone offer a counterargument that isn't condescending and/or flat out aggressive.

I think you misread the line about "ZERO males are sexualized." I stated that that is NOT the argument I wanted to make. My definition of sexualized is a character who is designed with the intent of enticing the player. That's why Fiora is sexualized (she is covered, but her pose is all about showing off her ass), and Tryndamere is not. Tryndamere is shirtless, but he is a berserker. He is enraged, he is not enticing at all. Also, he is grotesquely muscular.
I was going to stay out of this but I just can't. Respectfully your definition of sexualized only applies to the male point of view. Science, nature, nurture, society, whatever has shown that the female depiction and understanding of "sexualization" has so little to do with any sort of visuals whatsoever. What a female defines as "sexy" harkens back to looking for a mate to provide. Muscles, sure, but providing a better life for children (through genetics, lifestyle, career success) is just as important, if not moreso. While there has been some shift this past generation, it simply has not altered sufficiently for anyone to believe otherwise.

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There are plenty of examples of sexualized males in other mediums. I was in Vegas last years, and there were posters for 4 different male revues plastered all over town. Vampire Diaries and True Blood are all about fanservice. I'm not asking for a male in a speedo. I'm asking Riot to respect both genders equally by using the same design philosophy for both of them.
As before, male and female definitions of "sexy" are completely different. Asking Riot to use the same philosophy is unfortunate because the same philosophy does not apply equally to male and female.

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Whether a male is good looking and whether or not he is sexualized are two different things. Darius is in shape, sure, but he isn't contorting his body to accentuate his features. He dresses practically for a battlefield. The player may or may not be attracted to him, but he good looks are completely secondary to his menacing looks. At the same time, there is not a single woman in this game that isn't attractive by those standards. They are all good looking. But only the ones that make a point to show off their assets are the ones I define as sexualized. It just happens to be almost all of them. Irelia shows off cleavage, but I don't count her as sexualized because I don't think he shoved her chest out in an unnatural way. Pose have a lot to do with it.
I have no problem mostly conceding this point because it's fair and valid. Granted there are plenty of splashes painted by female artists (remarkably talented artists, to boot). I can't say as I understand a lot of the poses, but with the work put into each one, I think anyone not Riot would have a hard time getting any of those changed.

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The section I talk about age was not about saying old people aren't sexy. Again, the theme of the post was showing have the two genders are treated differently from a design perspective. The entire point of that section was to illustrate that they will make a male champion of any age, and they don't make female champions past the age of 30. Gangplank is middle-aged. Sure, he can still be sexy, but he does look older than any female champion in the game, and he has at least two skins that make him look over 50.

All the other guys on the list just happen to be good looking. They aren't sexualized unless they pose in a way, or dress in a way, that draws attention to their fine bodies.
This, once again, goes back to the difference in how male and female sexuality is portrayed and what the male and female gender finds sexually attractive. Once again you cannot blithely apply a single design philosophy or set of rules across the board and have it apply. Should there be a change? Sure. I can understand why someone would want a change. I certainly have some issues with some of the splash art, but, not being female I can't say one way or the other.

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That's why Zyra is sexualized. She could be walking around naked like Eve and it wouldn't necessarily matter, but her pose is very much designed to be enticing. Nidalee isn't the worst offender, I'll admit, but I definitely think her French Maid skin has sexual intent. LeBlanc is a great character, but using *** as a weapon is something exclusive to female champions. It's also appropriate for Ahri, but whether or not it fits the character is irrelevant. They could make male characters with lore that allows them to be sexy, too, but they don't.
Draaaaaaaaaaven. Just had to.

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Riot has already demonstrated that they are capable of creating engaging characters that aren't sexualized. Default Diana is fantastic, and her she is well received as a champion. Irelia has a pilot skin that was fairly popular got a while. A real pilot, and not a stripper parody. It's great.
Leona as well. Oddly enough both Diana and Leona are IronStylus creations. Trust the man. He and GrumpyMonkey are gods among artists. Riot has a great design team. I don' trust Morello or Zileas but I trust the art team to be amazing and pay attention to what the community wants.

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My suggestion was a Baba Yaga inspired champion, but they can draw inspiration from anywhere. Maleficent is a mega popular Disney villain. Ursula is widely celebrated, and she's fat! /gasp
And yet Maleficent, Cruella deVille, Princess Jasmine, Snow White, hells, pick any female character Disney has ever done *not* Ursula are thin and sexualized. That's not to say you don' have a point, just that your point does have a counter (to which the obvious counter counter is that "Disney over-sexualized females as well").

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I just want to push Riot to challenge themselves, to make more interesting choices, and to be fair to both genders. Graves could have been a female outlaw who dressed the same way, been just as old, and looked just as gritty, and I bet you anything people would still have played her. Why is that acceptable for a man and not a woman?

Thanks again for being respectful. Upvoting you just for that.
I don' think anyone pushes Riot's design team harder than Riot's design team. I do wonder about your last point. It makes little sense to me. Because Graves is strong and popular, he wouldn't be picked if he were female? I'm lost. Or was it he could be female and still be popular? You think if it were an old woman in a coat it would work? Because I think it would be hilarious. Riot pls.


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DoctorBeer

Senior Member

10-06-2012

nope.avi


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StunnedandSlayed

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Bikini thread has 200+ upvotes says it all.


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chumbler

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Maleficent and Cruella de Ville are sexualized? Did I see a different version of Sleeping Beauty and 101 Dalmatians? You could maybe, if you really, really stretched, argue Cruella de Ville as sexualized, but Maleficent?

Seriously?

vvvv Yeah, that MF art is completely ridiculous. Even if you set aside the outfit, she's missing several ribs and internal organs. I have no problem with MF being portrayed as sexy, since that's important to her character (though that type of character type needs to be used sparingly, instead of being, say, every character), but come on, Riot. At least make her look reasonably human.


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Bianary

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverHellion View Post
As a male teenage gamer.... I have to agree with the OP. I hate the selection of body types the females have, and I despise the people that say things like the pentakill olaf are for women. Miss Fortunes 115 pounds with a good 10 of those going to big bags of fat, will only hurt her in a setting like the League, where as Olafs bulging muscles are needed for him to swing an axe. I get fantasy, but I want some realism.
Have you seen the Miss Fortune splash art? I'd note this is also the same image used for MF on posters at places like PAX:

http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/43/47/552004_10152022027045556_25129160_n.jpg

Her outfit is terrible. Not only does it look like she's about to fall out of her top, the leather strap is half broken through up near her arm (But it's k, it's going to slip off on its own soon enough anyway). Note that she's soaking wet, too (Though oddly, her hair looks dry). If that isn't about as sexualized as it can get, I don't understand the definition of the word.


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RBeckham

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Supporting the discussion!


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Lee View Post
Well done OP, you summed up my concerns about the way Riot designs its female characters very well, and explained it far better than I could have done. It's great to see so many people supporting you in this thread, and I hope that Riot will post here. Unfortunately there have been a lot of ignorant comments as well.

My summoner name makes it pretty clear that I'm a girl, and while harassment in game isn't a big problem for me, I do get it occasionally, and more often I just have people making a big deal about me being a girl or being really surprised that I play this game. I didn't really think that much about making my summoner name feminine, it was just one of the first things that came to mind, and I don't try to make a big deal about my gender but I suppose it's nice to have people use the correct pronouns for you rather than just assume you're a guy.

What I have found interesting about a lot of the comments here is how dismissive some people are about this problem. Sexism is widespread in the gaming industry and it's something we should think about and acknowledge, not just flat out deny. A lot of people have assumed that the OP is a woman simply because he has these concerns, as if the only people who care about feminism and gender equality are "whiny" girls. Also there have been a few girl gamers specifically commenting that they don't see a problem here. This shows that men are not the only ones who can be dismissive of gender concerns. Often in a male dominated environment it can be appealing for women to side with the majority and not take issue with what's going on. It's as if they're trying to say, well I'm a girl, so I have authority on the topic, and I don't see a problem here, so therefore there can't be a problem.

While I'm not saying that the way characters are designed in this game is something that everyone should be getting up in arms about, I do think it's something we should discuss and that people should acknowledge that some might object to it, for legitimate reasons.

Much like the OP, I don't have a problem with sexy female characters, expecially when it fits with their personality (for example Ahri and Miss Fortune). I do have a problem with the homogenaety of female characters and the fact that so many of them are sexualized, if not in their classic look in a skin. I really like Diana, Vayne and Riven because their classic skins make them look pretty baddass, and they aren't just like fighting **** toys. But they each have a skin that makes you think of *** as soon as you look at it, despite the fact that this characterization doesn't really suit them or their lore.

I just think it would be great if Riot introduced a little more variety in terms of female body types and personalities. The male characters are far more diverse. The OP breaks this down very well. Why is it that we can have old male characters like Corki and Zilean, and a range of body types, but all the female characters absolutely have to be young and beautiful? If nothing else, this makes the game less diverse than it could be, and limits the possibilities of female characterization.

Edit: Also, I think that the OP was correct in identifying Varus as the only sexualized male champion. While many others are muscular and/or attractive, they are not designed in a way that makes you think of *** as soon as you see them. Their muscles are a sign of their physical strength and power, not simply an aesthetic feature. Most women prefer men who are muscular, but not to the extremes of, say, Tryndamere.
QFT.

The other day, I was playing with an Akali. In champion select, he asked if he should use the Nurse skin or the Bloodmoon skin. I voted Bloodmoon, because I consider it one of the best skins for any champion, someone else voted Nurse. Tie vote. So we didn't find out until the loading screen which one he chose. As the game started, the chat looked like this:

Me: guess I lost the tie breaker
Akali: nurse akali is sexy
Me: but sexy is kind of generic in this game
Akali: so true!

Having a diverse cast gives more meaning to the sexy skins we have. When everyone is sexy, it's not special or interesting. It's status quo. How boring. That's what this topic is about.


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SpatenMiinchen

Senior Member

10-06-2012

When you go to a trendy bar or night club where people are dressed to look attractive, what proportion of females to males look oversexualized? I think you would agree that males are generally less revealing than females.

So I think its just a general societal acceptance thing where its more common to see seductive females than seductive males out in public. Therefore Riot has only followed this trend when portraying female champions in a seductive manner.

I do however agree that their could be more suave/clean/fit James Bond looking male champions to help appeal to your tastes. But as far as having male stripper champions that just doesn't seem very popular. Well I don't know maybe it would good to have one or two full on male stripper champions, but it would just be awkward to have as many male stripper champs as female stripper champs. Because it wouldn't reflect what goes on in society.