Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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Subdue

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
You still said nothing to disprove my statement that passive GP/10 jungling is the safest and most obvious choice. You say counter jungling is a viable way to shut it down, yet now you admit that your team actually has to pay attention and assist you correctly... even more factors that can go wrong, where as playing the above mentioned means you will be useful 100% of the time... the reward for the massive risk it is still just isn't there with the current jungle.
Most obvious choice for what? I mean just look at how the competitive picks break down. Fast clear counter-junglers are used about as often as gp10 support junglers.

http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Season_2...Picks_and_Bans


Quote:
Originally Posted by TehPumpkin View Post
Firstly: 1v1 jungler duels are extreamly rare. If they meet, one runs and one doesn't. Or if they both commit, it's garunteed one side has people collapsing. Taking enemy jungle used to be extreamly risky because you should take the entire camp.. Now you just kill 1 mob and gain a huge gold benefit.
This is why slow clears have a tough time counter jungling compared to fast clears.

Quote:
Nocturne picked how many times? Where's rammus? Where's shaco? Where's Nasus? Where's the other 20 flipping junglers? Kthnx. I see maokai, skarner, shen, lee sin, and shyvana being the primary picks.. Also please note that these champs are built as supports or tanky initiaters or bruisers. Kthnx again.
Nocturne was picked once.

Rammus is a support jungler who builds Gp10s. (oops?)

http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=1823...us-build-guide

Maokai: Gp10 Jungler
Skarner: Gp10 Jungler
Shen: Gp10 Jungler
Lee Sin: Wriggle Jungler
Shyvana: Wriggle Jungler

Seems to me like there is a solid mix between junglers that rely on wriggles and junglers that can rely on Gp10s.

As for jungler's that aren't there: That has nothing to do with Gp10 and everything to do with those junglers simply not having kits that are effective for that role. Shaco is heavily countered by the ward spam prevalent in these games. Notice Rammus and Amumu were both picked zero times? You guessed it! It's because they're highly susceptible to getting counterjungled.

The weaker creeps in the new jungle actually make many more junglers viable rather than obsolete.


Quote:
Thanks for proving our point that the jungle needs a change. Read what you typed and you see the issue. Thanks again!
I think you need to go reread it.


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TehPumpkin

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Lee Sin: Wriggle Jungler
Shyvana: Wriggle Jungler
Quote:
Seems to me like there is a solid mix between junglers that rely on wriggles and junglers that can rely on Gp10s.
Yes both of your "wriggle Junglers" are gp10 users that actually rely on that HoG. Only reason for lack of Philo stone is the lack of mana therefore a wasted stat. Get facts straight son
EDIT: also, did you check out that nocturnes build as the game progressed? I sure kept an eye on it.. only words: Lol jungle is broken.


Quote:
As for jungler's that aren't there: That has nothing to do with Gp10 and everything to do with those junglers simply not having kits that are effective for that role. Shaco is heavily countered by the ward spam prevalent in these games. Notice Rammus and Amumu were both picked zero times? You guessed it! It's because they're highly susceptible to getting counterjungled.

The weaker creeps in the new jungle actually make many more junglers viable rather than obsolete.
Ward spam prevalent in these games due to gp10 being most effective and oracles being affordable on tanky junglers without sacrificing damage items which damage junglers actually need.(Which is every single one you mentioned. Including Shyvana and Lee sin.) Those two scale very well from early game damage/clearing into late game tanking. Every single damage-reliant jungler is indirectly hard-nerfed because on top of needing ward and oracle cash they need to afford their damage items on-time and in an effecient manner. Which they cannot possibly due when they are trying to counter-jungle. It's too much cost vs. profit vs. risk. Why should the damage-reliant junglers have to have this TREMENDOUS risk vs. gp10 junglers? Why are they so damn safe and effective at warding/counter warding without taking any real income hits.. Their gp10's transform into items they actually need in late game.. so they sit on these 2 or three items and sell only 1, transforming the others casually while they also provide higher income then your "fast clear time" junglers. A support jungler clears, wards, counterwards, and ganks. While the fast clear junglers clear jungle, ward, counterward, gank, AND have to go into your jungle in order to get the items they need to remain effective. That's not punishing a gp10 user, that's rewarding them. That's rewarding safe junglers. That's rewarding support junglers and punishing all others.

Why do you think nocturnes, lee sins, and shyvanas all go straight into a HoG? I'm pretty sure it's not for damage.

Rammus is only a gp10 jungler NOW. His clear times took a drastic hit with the rework(He used to have good clear times because he could tank the hard hitting/high hp mobs and get kills from them hitting him). Amumu isn't in this discussion and quite honestly with his cc he is only weak to counter ganking between lvl 1 and 4. Before he can afford to bandage-toss into his minions and create very rapid clear times due to bypassing walls.

They make more jungles viable and push other junglers out.. The problem persists and you continue to prove it! I have yet to see anything that says otherwise.

You're just *****ing because your maokai might not be as fast and easy-mode as it is right now. Get over it and go support maokai or toplane maokai APtank like a cho'gath does. Heck I'm pretty sure with his sapling/Q clears he could do AP mid like a cho'gath does! Not to mention he has sustain!

Maokai would finally have to build something other then 3x gp10's in order to keep up clear times as it should be. Not be so god damn safe you can take 3x gp10's and just spam oracles/wards because you scale fine and can just easy-farm jungle+gain gp10 gold. No.

The current system is tremendously more broken then previously. Your arguments are stupid, filled with false information, and you refuse to even consider addressing the main issue.

Gtfo


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orc72

Senior Member

10-05-2012

dont forget, jungles now rush boots and oracles before they can even build gp5 to try and keep up with the supports =p


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by orc72 View Post
dont forget, jungles now rush boots and oracles before they can even build gp5 to try and keep up with the supports =p
So true... very common tactic for jungle to rush oracles just to keep up map awareness for the team... further emphasizing just how little it matters for jungle to have any items, let alone be a carry-type.


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TehPumpkin

Senior Member

10-05-2012

bump for awareness and riot official response concerning the state of the jungle and if any plans in works. Even acknowledgement whether or not there is an issue in their eyes.


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BobTheCowRider

Member

10-05-2012

make wards give experience, so us junglers can get some experience when are camps are constantly being taken by allies, and you know...everyone expects us to gank every 10 seconds so why even jungle..

so i'll say it again... Make destroying wards give experience. Will help the junglers who buy oracles early.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheCowRider View Post
make wards give experience, so us junglers can get some experience when are camps are constantly being taken by allies, and you know...everyone expects us to gank every 10 seconds so why even jungle..

so i'll say it again... Make destroying wards give experience. Will help the junglers who buy oracles early.
Meh, that would just further solidify the zero item ward / CC bot jungle we already have going. I'd rather see a bigger switch up in the game to break this current hole of a meta.


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Crunchez

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Jungles only shines with premade that know how to bait right or bring the fight to the jungle... Otherwise it not that the jungle role is useless it just one reasons that I noticed since end of season one...

The ''Fail'' Jungle Remake With the ''easier jungle but less cash reward'' remake that was suposed to bring a more aggresive playstyle (which is not bad dont get me wrong) just.. never worked at all.. YES a good jungle will gank more often due to the fact he as less time to spend in the jungle BUT the laners also upgraded their playstyles in about every serious games you will play... Meaning that Bot will always be warded...

top will too maybe 40% of the times (buying oracles pre 6... rly? my ganks better work huh?!) and mid isnt always easy to gank pre 6 (with most champs) if your mid dont bait it right first... So unless your team HELP you to help THEM by destroying wards/baits n stuff the aggresive playstyle IS NOT POSSIBLE most of the times which result in a lost of gold for the jungle if he dont buy gp10 items or snowball a bit...

I once Had the idea of personal hidden quests to the other team that would change every x minutes that people that spent x time in the jungle (which is pretty much only the jungler) would get to kill a certain random target on the other team for let say 150 extra gold (change the number as you fit is balanced) until 25 minutes in the game.. but I know peoples wont like my idea because it could be abused and stuff

Still my 2nd favorite role after top tho.. so if it useless then I dont get why I still have the feeling of turning the games sometimes :P just need to be everywere


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Keldon888

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Jungle is a support.

Support via map awareness, via buff control(and giving them to lanes), via CC, via freeing up another lane for solo.


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Professor Wicked

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

I forget when it was but sometime in the last 2 weeks I played a game as jungle shyv and the enemy AD carry was heckling me saying how bad I was because I was 1-5. It bothered me quite a lot because I had been supporting ever lane and keeping up with my farm well.
I realized then that I was 1-4-19 and reminded the enemy ad carry how important that was.

I guess my question is, what's wrong with being a supporty jungler? dying for your team is just as rewarding when you're feeding the **** out of your carry. If you really wanna be a carry, go play a carry and stop whining about our jungle.