Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

First Riot Post
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Sabrestrike

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Jungle is the second most gold pinched role in the game. The problem is that defensive stats are heavily discounted relative to damage stats because Last Whisper and Void Staff exist, so basically 40% of the armor/MR you bought in mid game won't do anything late game.

This discounting lends itself to being taken advantage of by the gold starved roles like jungle and support. Remember league has 3.5 gold streams and 5 players.


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MadLock

Senior Member

10-04-2012

I've always enjoyed playing a support. If I can carry I would be fine too, but I don't mind not getting kills. As a jungler though one wrong move and I get flamed.


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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
We see a nice mix of roles getting commonly played:
Tanky Initiator - Skarner, Amumu, Maokai, Udyr, Nautilus
Assassin - Shaco, Evelyn, Nocturne, Jarvan IV
Invader/Duelist - Lee Sin, Shyvana, Dr. Mundo

The bolded are in the wrong category. Nocturne is built tanky with gp10s now, Jarvan4 is tanky initiater. Lee sin is only an assassin early game, he goes HoG and into tanky. Dr mundo is a tanky initiater.

Zzzzzz. Even Shyvana goes tanky initiater/secondary initiater.
Zzzzzz. Evelynn is played mid and top. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 evelynn even try to jungle her. The only one I can agree with is Shaco being an ACTUAL assassin in the current meta.. but then again, It's so rare to see IE/PD on shaco in this meta unless it's a pubstomp in normal, or a smurf in low elo.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Seriously, I am seeing more people want support than jungle these days, and the reason is obvious in my mind: the most sure fire way to win now is just to make jungle another support.

There's no room assassin/damage dealing type junglers with the current design. The jungle just doesn't provide enough farm compared to lane anymore, and you can't rely on getting lots of kills from ganks early if the enemy team plays smart and/or your team doesn't.

That's also if you even get to clear your own jungle. With how easy the small camps are now, other lanes pretty much demand half your camps to get an edge over their enemy laner... and why shouldn't they, it's a great tactic for them... long as you aren't the poor jungler!

So what does that devolve the jungle into? A tanky support with good initiate and CC. The best jungle picks by far these days are champs like Amumu, Nautilius, Malphite, etc... who can win team fights without any gold at all due to their kits.

I really hope Riot has some plans for jungle in season 3, because I am sure I am not the only one who is flat out sick of this design.

FYI: As support running GP5 runes and building dual GP5 I usually end up with more gold at the end of the game than our jungle, even if they played well and had similar presence (kills/assists)... that's how little the jungle is currently worth... further strengthening my metaphor as jungle the secondary support.

Would love a red post in this thread, even if it's "we're happy with the jungle now" just to see if they agree/disagree with its current state.
Rengar says hi.


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Subdue

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Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehPumpkin View Post
Off topic. Fun of jungling != main issue. Fun of jungling is a side effect. But to respond to your 'fun factor' mr main jungle.... Why are all the players that had fun with master yi, nocturne carry, shaco carry, kha'zix to a lesser extent(he's still new, people are still trying and failing to make this work) and so forth punished for wanting to main these junglers because they find them fun vs you finding the others fun?

And I'm sorry it's not about farming all game(which is a very counter productive argument, since the entire gaming is about farming all game with player interaction here and there) but why jungling CANNOT farm it up to 6? Why is lee sin, udyr, shyvana, maokai, nunu, and others who try to gank ALOT pre-6 onpar gold wise with a warwick who farmed the entire early game to 6?

Shouldn't that warwick come out of the jungle at 6 ready to wreck some faces and have a good item lead on a jungler who doesn't have kills but only assists? Why is he punished for it instead of rewarded for his playstyle and lack of earlygame agression via ganking?

Support junglers have their role. Give the BUILT-FOR-JUNGLING junglers have theirs, instead of punishing them for it.

That, or put caster minions gold to 4gold for a few patches and see the reaction, I'm sure EVERYONE will be A-okay with that idea... /sarcasm
I am going to have to address this in parts. First of all, there are two ways that a jungler can affect the laning phase.

1. They can gank.
2. They can counter-jungle.

Some junglers are strong gankers but clear their jungler relatively slowly (Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). These are the junglers you are referring to as supports, and that's basically their role. Some junglers are strong counter-junglers (Shyvana, Nocturne, Nunu, Udyr). These junglers have fast clears and a strong dueling ability. They're able to enter the enemy jungle in relative safety and steal creeps, thus denying the enemy jungler.

You already understand what the support junglers do. They build Gp10 and they gank frequently, clearing their jungle between ganks. However, if you're playing a counter-jungle jungler and you're not counter jungling (clearing only your side of the jungle), of course you are going to be less useful to your team. You're neither applying pressure like your high-gank counterpart, nor are you denying your counterpart and setting them behind.

I play primarily support junglers (Maokai, Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). The champs that worry me the most when I see them on the other side are Shyvana, Nunu, and Udyr. Why? Because I know if the player on that champ is good, my ganks will have to be absolutely flawless or I'll fall behind in levels and gold very quickly, as they'll be in my jungle taking my creeps all day long. Against one particular Shyvana I actually ended up two levels below our bot lane at 15 minutes in because she consistently beat me to every camp.

Now of course, there are some junglers that are simply weak all around: (Warwick, Master Yi). These champs aren't weak because of the Gp10 issue, but because their ganks aren't strong enough for them to play a high gank role, and their clear isn't fast or safe enough to counter jungle. It's a flaw in their design rather than a flaw in the jungle.

One thing I will note, however, is that counter-jungle junglers are more difficult to play than gank junglers, because you need to be aware not just of what's going on in the lanes, but of where the enemy jungler is, or you can find yourself in a tough situation very quickly. It's often fear of getting caught that keeps players on counter-jungle junglers from jungling effectively.


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Sticky Yurple

Senior Member

10-04-2012

so much truth in OP. red post incoming


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathy Aro View Post
Rengar says hi.
Rengar is widely considered to be completely broken right now... don't mistake being overpowered with assassin viability. Also, he's played top far more than jungle.


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehPumpkin View Post
The bolded are in the wrong category. Nocturne is built tanky with gp10s now, Jarvan4 is tanky initiater. Lee sin is only an assassin early game, he goes HoG and into tanky. Dr mundo is a tanky initiater.

Zzzzzz. Even Shyvana goes tanky initiater/secondary initiater.
Zzzzzz. Evelynn is played mid and top. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 evelynn even try to jungle her. The only one I can agree with is Shaco being an ACTUAL assassin in the current meta.. but then again, It's so rare to see IE/PD on shaco in this meta unless it's a pubstomp in normal, or a smurf in low elo.
You can build all of the junglers you listed as tanky junglers, certainly. I don't know why you say those are the only ways to build them, though. I have no way of evaluating what is the most common build for any of them statistically. Anecdotally, I see plenty of builds not involving gp10s on these junglers in high level games.

I don't understand the idea of Mundo as an initiator. He is plenty tanky, but he has no way to make the opposing team fight at all.

I don't understand why IE/PD would be required or even desirable to make an assassin. When I think of an assassin build Nocturne, for example, I am expecting to see items Phage and Wit's End that provide a mix of damage and survivability.


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Xioden

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Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
I don't understand the idea of Mundo as an initiator. He is plenty tanky, but he has no way to make the opposing team fight at all.
They either:

A.) Fight with Mundo on top of them doing some nice damage over time and being hard as hell to kill
B.) Run Away with Mundo slowing and allowing his team to pick people off.

Quote:
I don't understand why IE/PD would be required or even desirable to make an assassin. When I think of an assassin build Nocturne, for example, I am expecting to see items Phage and Wit's End that provide a mix of damage and survivability.
Mixed Damage/Survivability = Bruiser, not assassin.


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Mynt

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Senior Member

10-04-2012

It doesn't matter if the jungler is underfed compared to the gold lanes. In any engagement, you'll outnumber your enemy. And even if the enemy jungler counterganks, it's still even.

Don't underestimate the power of being constantly MIA.