Level Points & Money Before Minions Spawn

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Ikruti

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Well, the simple fix for the abuse cases you just pointed are is that once you attack anything or use any ability, you can not sell the item back for a full refund.

The GP5 items would a bit more interesting. My understanding is that they work even while you're dead. Not sure how to fix that one.


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Malurth

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Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
Sell all your stuff mid game, but a deathcap, karthus ult, undo

Buy needlessly large rod. Ashe ult a fight. undo. Get BF sword instead.

There are tons of edge cases that could happen that I can't even think of. Plenty of devilishly inventive people play our game.
Just make it so you can't sell back at full price if you've used an ability/active/autoattack in the meantime. Problem solved.


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boourns

UI Designer

10-03-2012
5 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malurth View Post
Just make it so you can't sell back at full price if you've used an ability/active/autoattack in the meantime. Problem solved.
I'll hold you to that when it's a surprise to you and you can't undo a purchase! The big thing is that we want to make the rules clear to the players and have it feel like it makes sense while still handling abuse cases. It would feel terrible if you couldn't understand why sometimes you can undo a purchase and sometimes not.


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swan2swan

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Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I'll hold you to that when it's a surprise to you and you can't undo a purchase! The big thing is that we want to make the rules clear to the players and have it feel like it makes sense while still handling abuse cases. It would feel terrible if you couldn't understand why sometimes you can undo a purchase and sometimes not.
Can't you just have the tip bar pop up? You've done that before. Have Phreak mention it in the Patch Preview, and you're on your way!


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Krosan

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I'll hold you to that when it's a surprise to you and you can't undo a purchase! The big thing is that we want to make the rules clear to the players and have it feel like it makes sense while still handling abuse cases. It would feel terrible if you couldn't understand why sometimes you can undo a purchase and sometimes not.

Place a buff on the champion every time they shop.
"Shopkeeper's Favor: Able to refund recently-purchased items from the store at full price. Ends when you use an ability or leave the Summoner Platform."
Have it be a little icon-size picture of the shopkeeper like Hippalus has as his forum avatar.
Problem solved.


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DarkNataku

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Potentially easier solution: create an anti-ability bubble around the shopkeeper (for his own protection!). Leaving the bubble means no more full refund on items as the champion has officially left the "shop". Could be annoying if enemy teams decide to camp at the fountain steps, but at that point the game is really over anyways.


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Malurth

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Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I'll hold you to that when it's a surprise to you and you can't undo a purchase! The big thing is that we want to make the rules clear to the players and have it feel like it makes sense while still handling abuse cases. It would feel terrible if you couldn't understand why sometimes you can undo a purchase and sometimes not.
Yeah, exactly how I'm confused about why gp10 items are selling for half and all other items are selling for 70% (except not really, because I know this). Nowhere does it mention this.

This would be a minor burden of knowledge, IMO. To this day after thousands of games and gold rank I still don't know the specifics of brush/skillshot vision interactions, and that's pretty vital to know for high-level play. This would just be a drop in the bucket, is what I'm saying (granted, the less drops the better, but I feel the pros outweigh the cons on this one).

A tooltip or PVP.Net announcement or something would help alleviate this a lot.

Also, as far as burden of knowledge goes, maybe introduce (optional) loading screen tips before each game. Helps a LOT in the games that do this, and I feel there's a huge potential here. Could easily get statistics about the player and matchup to calculate what tips to display; could be done really elegantly and I think it would greatly reduce the burden of knowledge that shrouds the game.


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Here's how I'd do it to make it transparent to players. I simplified the concepts from my previous post.

Add a third button between "Buy" and "Sell" labeled "Refund." Alternatively, the text on the sell button would read Refund instead. When you hover over the Refund button, a tooltip reads, "You can receive a full refund this item as long as you have not been in combat, used the item's ability, and have the inventory space to do so."

I think most players can intuitively understand what "combat" means. As for the technical definition:

Combat is defined as being hit by an enemy champion/turret or dealing any form of damage. Taking damage from an enemy champion doesn't count if you are still on the spawn pad.

Just using an ability should not be considered combat. I always use my movement ability (if I have one) as soon as I'm done shopping so I can get back to the game as fast as possible.

Refunded items are broken down into what they were previously, if it was a combination item. Refunding items also causes the player to lose any gold generated by them (philosopher's stone).

I don't feel that the Gp5 gold being lost warrants a note in the tooltip, since it just makes it more wordy. It's implied that refund means no benefit was gained, and if someone tries it, they don't lose anything aside from a little wasted effort.

The main case of "abuse" that, if someone had the gold, and they had 6 items, they could combine 2, buy a consumable, use it, then get a refund and continue saving for something else. However, I feel that this is such a niche case when compared to all the benefits of a refund system, it's negligible.


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YeZombie

Senior Member

10-04-2012

why not just use the DOTA system, where there's a 10 second time period after buying an item to resell it for full price? i mean the honor system is kind of a copy of the dota 2 commend system already so lets add more dota! yeagh!


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boourns

UI Designer

10-04-2012
6 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by YeZombie View Post
why not just use the DOTA system, where there's a 10 second time period after buying an item to resell it for full price? i mean the honor system is kind of a copy of the dota 2 commend system already so lets add more dota! yeagh!
Buyback or resell it not how I'd like to approach the problem. Generally I think the real problem is sometimes you misclick or make a mistake while doing something in the shop. The concept of resell only covers buying. What about selling or combining an item? Undoing an action is more comprehensive IMHO.

A timer feels like an arbitrary solution which could be frustrating. I'd prefer to convey the rules clearly and allow the player to choose when they are happy with their choice and no longer need to undo something. Things like an anti-spell cast bubble are along those lines, but unfortunately remove gameplay from the game so it could be problematic.