Creative Design AMA - Soraka and Warwick

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ConanOfCimmeria

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Junior Member

09-29-2012

I hate the new lore changes. Bring back the badass Warwick!


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Arcane Azmadi

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanOfCimmeria View Post
I hate the new lore changes. Bring back the badass Warwick!
This IS the badass Warwick! He's cunning, vicious, manipulative and gets his own hands dirty -or bloody, more accurately- rather than sitting back dropping bioweapons on people.

Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp? The old Warwick was as much "the Blood Hunter" as Garen is "the Master of the Tea Ceremony". This guy actually DESERVES the title.


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Azmadi View Post
This IS the badass Warwick! He's cunning, vicious, manipulative and gets his own hands dirty -or bloody, more accurately- rather than sitting back dropping bioweapons on people.

Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp? The old Warwick was as much "the Blood Hunter" as Garen is "the Master of the Tea Ceremony". This guy actually DESERVES the title.
This is a difficult concept for people to grasp because Warwick shows all the importance of a common street thug or low-ranking mafioso footsoldier. Truly cunning, vicious, and manipulative people are able to engineer events so that they never need to take physical risks or "get their hands dirty". If Warwick was actually as dangerous as you describe him in the new lore he could have gotten Soraka to volunteer to kill herself with a convincingly built lie about saving millions of people with her heart tissue. Instead he proceeds like a dimwitted lacky frequently hired by Singed and the other important Noxian scientists because he doesn't possess the mental clarity or wit to ask any questions (as we further see with his impatient, irresponsible, potentially fatal potion-chugging). The previous Warwick was relatable because his horrific and genocidal actions against Ionia might have somehow been justified, the motivations we are directly given for the new Warwick however are simply the baseless and ill-examined fantasies of an emotionally stunted nine-year-old. Where in his new lore is Warwick badass? Capturing a few dozen unarmed Noxian civilians in a sack after taking them by surprise? Failing to set up a successful Soraka ambush? I'd rather stick with harnessing a terrible brilliance to murder millions. Our story alternative is a rube henchman with less demonstrated intelligence than Mundo or Rengar, placed into a weaker body than these two with fewer dangerous abilities (ie. smelling things), inferior and less interesting in every way!

I'm aware that you have directly written "Warwick isn't meant to be sympathetic. He's the bad guy here." but incorporating such shallow "bad guys" in tired and limiting roles is the hallmark of awful and juvenile storytelling, and your support of this conceit is deeply troubling to me. Where have such things ever worked in the past?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnomad View Post
This Eserine dude has lost it.
I've provided evidence so far that

1. The revised lore is highly flawed, to which no player or staff member has volunteered a countervailing response to issues raised
2. There are many, many players dissatisfied with the lore team's conduct and performance (which is apparent to anyone even just reading this thread who possess the ability to count)
3. Even RIOT employees in other departments or higher positions do not attempt to defend the lore team's work as being good or worthy of the game

Your comment would seem to suggest that there are blatantly obvious arguments to the contrary, and that I am "insane" not to see them. Strangely however no one has seen fit to put forward these arguments. Secondly I find it interesting that critics of the lore in this thread are able to cite bad outside works to disfavorably compare the style to:

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a B-movie villain
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a POOR fairy-tale
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d&d characters' backstories from 15 y/o neckbeard-in-training
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a 14 year old's DnD character sheet
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a brief fantasy piece coming out of a teenage book
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Dog The Bounty Hunter
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saturday morning cartoon villan
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Wile E. Coyote
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the Star Wars prequels
What have those who have written in support of the revisions compared the work to? Nothing. The writing has not been connected by players to any well-received or critically acclaimed game, book, film, or television or comic series writing at all outside of the game in any respect, or even with a work favored only by an individual player. One poster noted that a creature name was directly "borrowed" from the Wheel of Time series, but that is not exactly similar to writing:

I found the critical passage

"As her blood spilled, Soraka realized he had fooled her, and everything he had done was a complicated ruse."

reminiscent in its power and evocative form to the betrayal of Othello by Shakespeare in 'Megablaster BootyDown ShakespeareSmash 5000'


Clearly this is because the new lore is just soooo amazing it defies all comparison with any pre-existing work! Elsewise those who like the lore have another reason for not comparing it with other lore, which include such possibilities as:

1. The work doesn't compare well with anything previously written by others because it is bad.

2. The people who like the lore revisions are unread pop-game addicts who would give positive grades to Rebecca Black lyrics if they were put forward by a Riot member on the forums since they have no basis of qualitative comparison.

3. The players felt that complimenting the authors with favorable comparisons to the writing and beginning a dialogue about works they loved would be rude?

4. ?

Therefore If I am neglecting to consider a brilliant work of fantasy literature that resembles what Riot is now putting out, that I have merely by accident missed enriching my life with, by all means please let me know, because I and many other players have never seen anything like it before (beyond what we might find stuck to the bottom of our shoes).

Finally I would like to reflect on someone else doesn't seem to find my arguments crazy or invalid: Riot Runnan. Without responding to players for a week here, she has still reformatted and erased her entire previous tumblr account after in this thread I linked to a recent post where she was discussing with screenshots spending her time in what appeared to be a furry MMORPG in order to illustrate the idea that she isn't concerned about the state of LoL lore in regards to what is brought up in the lore forum, and was secondarily using her job title to gain notoriety for her posts about internet memes. However her Twitter account still makes reference to playing lots of Borderlands2, housecleaning, and watching the anime series "Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo", and new tumblr has her searching out pokemon romance fanfics while most threads and posts with serious concerns about Lore writing remain unanswered here on the LoL site, so my point stands I think. One must naturally strike a balance between work and play to relax and recuperate in one's spare time, but is anyone suggesting that Runaan or the other lore writers are striking this balance well when compared with other developers at Riot who actually find some time to address players in the forum about problems instead of just going on Borderlands marathons? The "Jobs at Riot" hiring site repeatedly proclaims the ambition for the company to become "number one at player service and interaction", but the lore department seems quite divorced from these ideals.


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ThorRush

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Well hello again. Let's continue for as long as we feel like.

Do you prefer X-men to League of Legends? If you do, why should League of Legends attempt to be a clone of that? More importantly, is Warwick more similar to Jack the Ripper or Fritz Haber? Which one provides a more visceral image fitting a Blood Hunter werewolf?

How reasonable are you, really, when your reasons do not convince the majority of people that you are right? If so many people hold your view, why do Riot responses on the subject have upvotes? What is your purpose here? Is it merely to insult Rioters personally, so that they pay attention to you? Didn't you say they were worthless? Why do you care what they do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Under your definition large rocks are accessible. You can scream at them for years, visit them frequently and they will never answer or take your critiques into account, but in your view it seems that this would be a worthwhile relationship.


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Well hello again. Let's continue for as long as we feel like.
As stated previously I only feel like participating in this thread until there are no more questions or direct challenges to the points I have expressed, a player suggesting that I had "lost it" could be interpreted (charitably) as putting forward a semi-cogent criticism that I decided to answer after asking for further clarification so that there would be little doubt as to whether there were actually any unresolved points left contained within the argument. This does little to disprove the observation I was making about how player concerns are going unanswered by Riot in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Do you prefer X-men to League of Legends? If you do, why should League of Legends attempt to be a clone of that?
When I suggested that comparing the old and new Warwick lore was like comparing Magneto to Wile E. Coyote I was referencing the complexity afforded to the backstory of the characters by the various authors who have worked on these two subjects. Warwick has become a pointless foil for the virtuous human-like champions with no defined motivations beyond being evil, and little room for any additional cause more mysterious or moving. Still I would say that the X-men (if you mean the Stan Lee and Jack Kirby 1963 version) do a much better job introducing a cast of characters with extraordinary powers to the public than the lore team has done in rebooting the stories of their characters so far, which is sad because our ability to create such characterizations as a culture have improved and refined a great deal since that time, and the X-men were brought forward in an environment where there was almost no competition within the entertainment medium for the niche occupied by superhero comics which now spans a much wider and richer universe to draw from or play off of after the advent of modern movies, books and videogames, and the internet (as opposed to a handful of radio dramas and the literary embryos of SF and Fantasy lit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
More importantly, is Warwick more similar to Jack the Ripper or Fritz Haber? Which one provides a more visceral image fitting a Blood Hunter werewolf?
Fritz Haber better illustrates the process of a "monstrous transformation", with the new lore the motivations and appetites of the bestial wolfman seem exactly the same as the previous human, which would suggest, with physically unremarkable characters like Draven entering the league, that Warwick could have joined simply as a human and the fact that he has large teeth or claws is a negligible and unnecessary afterthought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
How reasonable are you, really, when your reasons do not convince the majority of people that you are right? If so many people hold your view, why do Riot responses on the subject have upvotes?
Do they have +117 upvotes like Dobyk?

There are no Riot responses in this thread to the large number of problems brought forward. People upvoted the cutesy idea that Warwick likes the taste of Yordles, people upvoted when Runaan claimed a meeting was held to change the lore, people upvoted her claiming that she was coming back to the thread over a week ago to answer more questions. Based on our past exchanges I'm going to guess that as well as not visiting the above thread I linked to in the past you probably also didn't read where I wrote on the possibility that

Quote:
2. The people who like the lore revisions are unread pop-game addicts who would give positive grades to Rebecca Black lyrics if they were put forward by a Riot member on the forums since they have no basis of qualitative comparison.
Now few people are actually looking at this thread since no explanations for players have been put forward in response, so I would posit that

1. I have no need to convince players of what they already believe
2. If I did wish to convince players of something I wouldn't use the later sections of an unread thread in the unpopular lore forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
What is your purpose here? Is it merely to insult Rioters personally, so that they pay attention to you? Didn't you say they were worthless? Why do you care what they do?
I am currently making a point about how one can respond to threads and player criticism with one's time even if people attempt to attack one's sense of self-worth. It would be great if the lore team read this and issued a statement responding to the player concerns presented here or actually redid the lore they have mangled, or decided to take much more care with the next changes they plan to undertake, and it would be even better if Riot Tryndamere happened across this thread and decided to fire or shift parts of the lore team to other departments to address the "issues" the current lore team has in creating good content.

As it is the art team and community department came together and chose out of 3000 entries a comic finalist for their fanart competition which openly mocks the inadequacies in the Wukong/Yi storyline and the pathetic nature of the lore craftsmanship.

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Originally Posted by MsPudding View Post
I'm sorry that you found zero of our 32 winning comics humorous, but they had many of us rolling on the floor with laughter.
This isn't a subtle matter of divided opinion for most people ThorRush...


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ThorRush

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Wow, I'm impressed. Your point on Haber actually looks like its on topic. I'll answer your other points, but I want to focus on this one.

- There is not a set method for introducing characters. Over Stan Lee's half century career, he introduced Wolverine differently from Cyclops differently from Spiderman differently from the Fantastic Four. They've all had ups and downs: they are different today than they were in the '60s. To say LoL is failing because Marvel is better in every way is false.

- The GD is much more active than the Lore Forum. The point is, Riot's posts have had more positive responses than negative. This is not a mistake. There is a reason for this - you may believe that it's because people are fans, but you and others you refer to are an example of why that's not true.

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Originally Posted by The Summoner's Code that you've clearly accepted
Facilitate Civil Discussion

"To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable." -Barry Goldwater
On Fritz Haber: consider Karma's judgment, in which Warwick shows up personally in Ionia. This was done for dramatic purposes, since Warwick was not actually there as seen in his old lore. Like Haber, Warwick was the scientist who directed the attacks - he was not personally engaged, and it is not entirely obvious to see that someone as bloodthirsty as Warwick would enjoy the distant, vicarious cruelty of his old lore. Singed fits the role of battlefield chemist much more cleanly: if I can predict it, he might even take Warwick's place in Karma's lore - or something even more cruel.

His new occupation as a manhunter demonstrates his tendencies more readily, and shows that his transformation was a conscious choice to become more. The only cost of this demonstration is his chemical expertise, which he may still retain to an extent due to his relationship with Singed. As a result of the lore change, however, Warwick is now free to appear in Ionia pre-transformation and play a larger role in the stories of other champions.


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Wow, I'm impressed. Your point on Haber actually looks like its on topic. I'll answer your other points, but I want to focus on this one.

- There is not a set method for introducing characters. Over Stan Lee's half century career, he introduced Wolverine differently from Cyclops differently from Spiderman differently from the Fantastic Four. They've all had ups and downs: they are different today than they were in the '60s. To say LoL is failing because Marvel is better in every way is false..
I never said that Marvel Inc. is better in every way than Riot, nor did I say that LoL as a whole is failing. I directly specified that the initial 1960s comic issues of the X-Men were better written than the lore remakes, and it is you who are "drifting" from this topic. The entire reason why I made this specification is that the X-men have been reformatted and spun off from several times, which you seem to now be attempting to propose is a totally new idea in this conversation after you initially (and sloppily) asked me whether "The X-men were better" and I, in address of this generalizability problem, narrowed down what you were trying to say in full anticipation of this argument you are now making, which I have already answered.

Are you proposing that the X-men compendium of collected works through the years had bad characters and story arcs that resemble the carelessness of our current LoL lore? If so I absolutely agree, but Marvel Inc. during the authorship of these problematic b'astardries did not have the luxury of an internet forum where fans could attempt to appeal bad decisions in an ongoing fault mechanism, nor was Marvel Inc. claiming at these times to be starting "a new chapter of collaborative player cooperation" as Riot claims to be attempting through its public relations releases while trumpeting how unique and trend-setting they are, or hosting these fake AMA threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
- The GD is much more active than the Lore Forum. The point is, Riot's posts have had more positive responses than negative. This is not a mistake. There is a reason for this - you may believe that it's because people are fans, but you and others you refer to are an example of why that's not true.
This idea is based on the thought that those who do not like the lore have downvoted the Rioters who have proposed it, I (and probably many others) haven't downvoted Runaan at all, since this thread was falsely predicated on the possibility of fixing things, although the concept of the lore team taking deeper player feedback is now made clear to be bullsh*t. The only votes she likely received were from people who actively liked the story initially, and as more criticism came to light the forum system likely disallowed a number of these players to go back and change their vote (since one isn't allowed to do that). I find a much better indication of player opinion is to actually and carefully read what players are writing in the thread. In my opinion simply glancing at the numerical support total is indeed a mistake, and also intellectually lazy. I don't agree with what you write but I am not downvoting your posts either you might notice, since I am afforded the opportunity instead to write out what I am thinking in whatever contrasts your stated beliefs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
On Fritz Haber: consider Karma's judgment, in which Warwick shows up personally in Ionia. This was done for dramatic purposes, since Warwick was not actually there as seen in his old lore.

Like Haber, Warwick was the scientist who directed the attacks - he was not personally engaged, and it is not entirely obvious to see that someone as bloodthirsty as Warwick would enjoy the distant, vicarious cruelty of his old lore.
There is actually no necessary contradiction between the story of Karma's judgement and Warwick's lore since the magical evocation of Karma's memories were a revisitation of a highly traumatized psychological state often seen on the battlefields of Earth history to cause intense and vivid hallucinations. Karma was wandering around for weeks breathing in toxins and wading through the bodies of her countrymen, at which point she very easily may have suffered a nervous breakdown which the Summoners later selected as the period of her most trying or dangerous memories.

Your statement about the unreadability of Warwick's cruelty levels are in my opinion foolish. the transformation into a beast was a symbolic metamorphosis, making the "distant, vicarious" dismissal of human life old Warwick felt into A CHANGED STATE, the consequential byproduct, an active and sanguinary gore-lust. Similarly when Ebeneezer Scrooge dismisses the man collecting money for orphans at his place of business in Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol", he is later shown by the ghost of Christmas future dead orphan children, his passive dismissal was transformed into the consequential byproduct as an illustration of the negative nature of antisocialism and greed.

Your use above of the phrase "it is not entirely obvious" worries me. Do you need everything you read to be "entirely obvious"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Singed fits the role of battlefield chemist much more cleanly: if I can predict it, he might even take Warwick's place in Karma's lore - or something even more cruel.
Masters of science have students who wish to learn from them, this worked well in my opinion because Singed and Warwick turned out completely different from one another, but Singed embodied what Warwick could have been had Soraka not given up her demigod-status to alter his body. This demonstrated a wider point about man's relationship with seeking immortality or forbidden knowledge, and the inability of an individual to ever fully kill an idea. The new Warwick lore (and VIktor and Jayce's lore) is a misportrayal of the communal and cumulative nature of research. It is as if all the important scientists and inventors in Runetera knew in advance that they would never have to pass on their knowledge to a new generation (or colleagues) because they were all aware that they are videogame characters who would one day join the League, which belies bad writing. Instead of these loner misanthropes (who also sometimes have to murder their teachers like Syndra as well) the lore could instead be written as having an individual brought to judgement to represent a wider population of specialists, some of which lack the necessary psychic fortitude to be murdered repeatedly year after year.

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Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
His new occupation as a manhunter demonstrates his tendencies more readily, and shows that his transformation was a conscious choice to become more. The only cost of this demonstration is his chemical expertise
What chemical expertise? He puts people into sacks. "The only cost" also includes radically transforming his body so that he may never have children or a human romantic relationship of standard parameters, he can never walk into a tavern without women screaming, he can never walk down the street without dogs barking and children crying. Do you think turning into a wolfman will have no relational consequences? Will his parents and siblings still recognize him? No. Will he be able to eat exotic fruits or vegetables from the Noxian markets? No. Regular clothing? No. It's a giant and life-altering handicap he undertakes so that, reportedly, he can smell his prey better and bite people. Individuals who are not idiots in this situation would simply start working with a dog who could smell prey and bite people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
which he may still retain to an extent due to his relationship with Singed. As a result of the lore change, however, Warwick is now free to appear in Ionia pre-transformation and play a larger role in the stories of other champions.
There is no lore forbidding old Warwick from appearing in different parts of Runeterra, indeed as an alchemist he would likely need to go on ingredient procurement trips, because we have no evidence that other individuals were available to go on such insane adventures without explicitly being "manhunters" sent out for finding test subjects.


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ThorRush

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Well, I don't feel like continuing anymore. Take that as you will (poorly), but I can not disagree with you when you disagree with yourself. I apologize for wasting your time.


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Well, I don't feel like continuing anymore. Take that as you will (poorly), but I can not disagree with you when you disagree with yourself. I apologize for wasting your time.
Apology accepted, assuming that you actually mean that you can no longer justify your positions. Good luck with future AMAs ThorRush.




EDIT NOTE: I had a sudden flash of insight while about to fall asleep, ThorRush genuinely might think that I have contradicted myself, and his problem likely comes from the understanding the passages

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush
To say LoL is failing because Marvel is better in every way is false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine
I never said that Marvel Inc. is better in every way than Riot, nor did I say that LoL as a whole is failing
A CAREFUL reader might stop and consider what I meant by writing "LoL as a whole", by this I meant that the League of Legends Audio Department is doing great work and I have no issue with their contributions, likewise the better coders at Riot do their jobs well at times, etc.

When ThorRush wrote "LoL is failing", what he really might have meant was "The Riot lore department specifically is failing", but he was too sloppy to actually specify this and then he didn't catch on to the qualifier I added to my response to directly indicate the lore department, which I have said many times is failing and exclude all other non-problematic departments. Thus he assumes I am just lying about what I have written and gives up the argument and downvotes my response.

In light of this probability, his response to my post can be reinterpreted from

"but I can not disagree with you when you disagree with yourself"

to

"but I can not disagree with you when I lack the capacity or patience to read carefully or state my arguments in clear terms"

and indeed it is a waste of time.


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aaexx

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Honestly, I'm disappointed in the lore changes.

I remember reading Soraka's lore and being blown away by the description provided about the wholesale massacre of innocent people. She fell from grace for ideological reasons, not a personal reason. Karma's judgment added to how epic the story was.

I understand war is a sensitive topic, but READ KARMA'S JUDGMENT and tell me it doesn't give you shivers. The repetition of "Oh I'm in the League because of some personal feud" is extremely overdone.