Dear Riot.....

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Stormer1337

Senior Member

09-28-2012

i shall sign


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Askelon

Senior Member

09-28-2012

Sign me up


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Pat Of FAP Corp

Junior Member

09-28-2012

Count me in!


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Lyria Eternal

Senior Member

09-28-2012

@Katsuni:

I'm curious about that since I've seen a few champions with the exact same movement animations as others. Which, as a game dev myself, indicates that they reuse the base models to create new ones. The things they edit are the movement frames, particle timers, and, of course, the voices. So we just eliminated one of the largest issues with creating a new champion, the model. Next, are some of us who are beginning to add voices to our concepts using programs to help. Now while these aren't state of the art or anything they do provide a basic template in which to work on.

Next we consider icons. There are also a few of us who are creating/reusing icons on our posts which eliminate another headache for devs. Testing of the champion is, agreed, one of the longest processes of the creation process. However, with a seasoned designer the ideas for numbers and values should be fairly easy, and the possible issues can be solved with the PBE. There the players already test, sometimes for weeks, the balance and stress that a new concept has on the environment.

In the end the things that would be unique to the Riot designers would be; Texturing the model, Particle Timers, and a bit of quick balancing before beta release.

Granted the games I've produced in the past have all been 2d games, but the idea is extremely similar when you boil it down. You never create new what you can reuse, and use what resources you can. So, while I can acknowledge the legal issues, which is why I agree with Winds about the TOSA in the game download or profile creation. Companies do it all the time to protect their interests. Now, HOW they go about using concepts from these forums would be another matter.

Do I think they should? Yes. Do I think it's possible? Yes. Do I think it's easy? No, it never is.


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Petyr Baelish

Senior Member

09-28-2012

If Riot was allowed to use player-created concepts from this forum, but had to give credit to the creator, would they? The answer is no, because it would restrict their champion design more than it would help it. Before releasing a new champion, they would have to cross-check the forum to see if the design had been created already, so they could give credit to the designer. If they created a champion very similar to a concept without giving the designer credit, there would be a legal issue to resolve, because they may or may not have looked at the concept while skimming the forum.

If Riot did use fan-created content, the CCF would experience a massive increase in threads. However, good threads would become rarer, because the people who make the best champion designs make them because they enjoy the design process even knowing their design will never be used. The forum would become bogged up with half-baked champion concepts, and Riot would have a hard time finding anything worth using.

Another problem that would occur when Riot decided to use a fan made concept is how much input the designer gets on the final champion. Even the greatest champion concepts are not perfect, and Riot will likely have a few tweaks to make. As designers who have poured massive amounts of time into our near-perfect designs, we will likely not want these tweaks, as even a small balance change can alter the entire build and playstyle. Riot can always ignore the designer and release the champ the way they think it should be, but as a designer I would rather have Riot not make my champ at all than let them make small changes that completely throw off my intended goal for the champ. These design arguments will probably force the concept to be abandoned and leave wide swaths of design space unusable.

However, there is a solution to these problems. Riot could organize a champion design contest with required data, possibly including icons and models, that make sure only people who put in a lot of effort get their submissions into the contest. These submissions are reviewed tribunal-style by the community, ranking them based on how much we would want to see the champion in game and buy it, then the top concepts are reviewed by Rioters. The winning champion is already nearly complete, and Riot releases it as-is shortly afterwards, giving the designer credit. The hype from the contest gets people to buy it with RP, and everyone is happy. If there are balance issues they can be patched, and there can even be a design interview with the designer so the community can see how the champion was designed. Riot gets money and saves effort, community gets an awesome champ, tryhard designers get to see their champ reviewed by Riot.

I will not sign.


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jrg7777

Senior Member

09-28-2012

You know how it's always more fun to come up with your own ideas? Well, I'm guessing Riot feels the same way...


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Stormer1337

Senior Member

09-29-2012

bump


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Nikola999

Senior Member

09-29-2012

I know I am new to this, but I wholeheartedly agree.

Add me to the petition :3


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Katsuni

Senior Member

09-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesofTerror View Post
@Katsuni:

I'm curious about that since I've seen a few champions with the exact same movement animations as others. Which, as a game dev myself, indicates that they reuse the base models to create new ones. The things they edit are the movement frames, particle timers, and, of course, the voices.
Astute observation! There's actually more to it than just transferring over the skeleton and animations, however. A run cycle is generic enough that most characters can use something more or less the same with minor edits to correct things like body shape and such, but generally yeu'll find a lot of the older champions reuse much of the same animations.

The newer ones, as they strive to make them more unique, and how Maya 2012 is far better at animating than previous versions, tend to be considerably more complex and unique to the character's personality.

A walk cycle is a walk cycle, but a good animator can make a dozen different walk cycles easily, dependent upon the character's mood, their personality, their body shape, all that kind of thing. Veigar's waddle simply isn't the same as whot yeu'd get from Sivir, or even whot yeu'd get from Gragas.

Attack animations tend to be a lot more unique in displaying their personalities as well, and of course dances, dodges and so on, which are actually considerably harder to make look fluid and natural since there's no real guide for making such, unlike walk cycles.

Regardless, there are some things which can be partially reused, and in every form of mainstream art, such as movies, hair design, animation and 3D modeling, or even particle effects, yeu're going to find people reuse stuff as much as possible.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IhZmqnZCyQ0/0.jpg

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/u...9/12/oq1iv.jpg

Prime examples of such, above ^.~

The thing is, however, that when it comes to character design, yeu want to reuse as little as possible. Every little thing that gets reused is one more opportunity which could have been used to accent their personality further which was missed.

Even something as simple as having a character walk confidently instead of just like they're going to the corner store can make a very large difference on the player's perception of that character, despite that the differences are so minor and minute that yeu may not even consciously recognize they're even there. The lack of them, however, will nag at yeu considerably, without really knowing why.

So... in any case, just figured I'd mention that, yeah, as much as possible is reused, though generally yeu want to keep that to background stuff. Copy paste all the trees yeu want. Fill a room with minor pieces of junk that yeu have no need to remake ever again such as toys, statues and so on.

In a lot of games and movies yeu'll find that if there's a bookshelf, it'll have things like statues of previous characters present from other movies/games! In reality, it's probably the exact same low-poly model they used in the actual game/movie with the various depth maps removed is all to make it look like a statue. Sometimes they don't even do that and just copy/paste it in, pose it, and simply don't animate it.

Still, as stated, this is something yeu try to keep in the background as much as possible; for a primary character, yeu generally want to have as much about them as personalized and unique as yeu can get it, so that they fill their character role that much better.
Quote:
So we just eliminated one of the largest issues with creating a new champion, the model.
Not... really. The model itself is probably made from scratch, and though some of the animations may have been reused in the past, it's less likely so today since they're so easy to make in comparison to when LoL first came out, and the quality of character design in the game has had the bar raised considerably, so they can't just reuse the same stuff from the past and call it "good enough" any longer.
Quote:
Next, are some of us who are beginning to add voices to our concepts using programs to help. Now while these aren't state of the art or anything they do provide a basic template in which to work on.
Not that difficult to do. I was going to work on doing voices for Nemhain myself, but honestly, I can't get the gruff, aggressive sound I want, and am certainly not a good quality voice actress =3
Quote:
Next we consider icons. There are also a few of us who are creating/reusing icons on our posts which eliminate another headache for devs. Testing of the champion is, agreed, one of the longest processes of the creation process.
The use of icons actually kind of bothers me, honestly XD I've learned all too well that the average person here will fawn over a champion with icons, no matter how bad it is, simply because it has icons. This really irks me beyond belief from a design standpoint, as this is honestly supposed to be about creating the concept of the character, not a "I put the most pretty shinies on my design!" contest.

Still, that's a personal annoyance about how easy it is to lure people into thinking something's better than it is by copy/pasting an icon from another website which focuses on making icons. We used to do it back in the old DotA1 forums as well, but it's considerably harder to put icons onto this forum due to how annoying it is to embed and position them with the lame BBCode variant the forum uses.

Still, by giving more detail, that's not a bad thing really, so don't dwell on that as much as I do =3
Quote:
However, with a seasoned designer the ideas for numbers and values should be fairly easy, and the possible issues can be solved with the PBE. There the players already test, sometimes for weeks, the balance and stress that a new concept has on the environment.

In the end the things that would be unique to the Riot designers would be; Texturing the model, Particle Timers, and a bit of quick balancing before beta release.
Probably the single largest piece of time spent, isn't any of that at all, actually, so much as finding ways to really accent a character's personality in a way that it readily stands out on it's own.

Everything from voice, to the lines that voice actress has to say, to the animations, to the background lore and model itself, all have to come together into a single, unified whole, which is considerably more complex to do than yeu might think.

They worked for months on Priscilla and Omen, before ditching the designs specifically because of that exact problem.

The big problem here, is that this is whot generates sales. Not being powerful, not being fun, not being effective... but specifically having a character design that intuitively works. Whot's wrong with this, is that it's near impossible to actually pull that off without actively knowing exactly whot yeu're doing in regards to this matter... and to be honest, virtually no one here understands the concept inside out. Even Riot has problems with it, still, as mentioned above.

It's easier to build something that works from scratch, than it is to slog back through heaps of intricately connected webs of design that don't work to fix them. Rebuilding a design that didn't work into one that does is remarkably difficult to accomplish, especially if the base design absolutely failed at the most fundamental levels and needs to be replaced from the ground up with only a few pieces retained.

At that point, yeu may as well not even use the design as a whole, and just use it for loose inspiration and nothing more... which they already do.
Quote:
Granted the games I've produced in the past have all been 2d games, but the idea is extremely similar when you boil it down. You never create new what you can reuse, and use what resources you can.
Yarr my last title was a 2D Unity game of all things XD Still, the point is, that yes, yeu reuse as much as humanly possible! ...Sometimes.

We reused the concepts of quests, monster designs, and so on and so forth, but when it came to major events and characters, such as player characters or major act ending bosses, everything about those were unique and specialized from the ground up. Yeu simply can't copy/paste nearly as much onto important stuff that will be garnering extra scrutiny from the player. If all the humanoid NPC's walk and act exactly the same way? Who cares! They're NPC's!

But if their priestess in a long flowing robe uses the same walk animation as the huge burly warrior, it's just going to feel inherently "off", and instead of being a quick glance which yeu'd either miss it entirely, or only bother yeu for a moment so that yeu don't care, it's going to be something that looms overhead all game in an irritating manner.

Regardless, the point is that yeu reuse as much as yeu can, but there's some stuff which flat out shouldn't be reused.
Quote:
So, while I can acknowledge the legal issues, which is why I agree with Winds about the TOSA in the game download or profile creation. Companies do it all the time to protect their interests. Now, HOW they go about using concepts from these forums would be another matter.

Do I think they should? Yes. Do I think it's possible? Yes. Do I think it's easy? No, it never is.
I agree that it'd be nice if they were able to use more from the forum and more obviously, but on the other hand, as stated, it's never easy, and it's honestly difficult to the point that it's not worth the trouble for the benefits gained. Yeu could do so, but why would yeu when it's simply going to cause more problems than it solves?

Riot's far from lacking creative vision on how to make unique champion ideas, so it's not like they're really hurting for such to the point that they need help or anything, so it's not exactly like our input is even needed. It's nice to have of course, but if yeu go back and check the original 40 champions from release, they really didn't have any real problems with making them stand out particularly well. Their character designs are actually one of the biggest things which drew me to the game in the first place. Things like Amumu, Annie and Fiddlesticks really caught my eye and drew me in.

Anyway... the point I'm making is just that yes, it's possible to use the ideas from the forum here, and yes, it's possible to do so at a relatively cheap rate, but no, doing so would not lead to high quality characters of the standards they have set for themselves, and it's mostly due to the way we design our champions; we design them to be played, or based off whot we think would be neat, without considering the nuances of whot makes them sell well, and that difference is part of whot gives us the freedom to do some really awesome stuff that Riot will never be able to do... but it's also the largest, key difference which means that virtually nothing on this forum is of value to them.


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Styrgwyr

Senior Member

09-29-2012

I'm afraid when Katsuni types..