Call for help - Jungling

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RockLobster88

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Yes, I saw that. Apologies.

So Q over W? I had assumed it was the opposite.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster88 View Post
Yes, I saw that. Apologies.

So Q over W? I had assumed it was the opposite.
I guess it kind of depends. The thing is, on top of your auto-attacks, Q gives you some quick lifesteal. And it's all at once. So after a point in W, Q will help you keep your health up and do some quick damage to jungle mobs. I think probably more importantly, Q is good for attacking enemy champions.

PLUS... maxing W on Warwick can become pretty pointless (for the self-buff anyway). For each point in W, you get 20% attack speed. That means at level 5, you get 100% attack speed. And your teammates get 50%. The thing is though, attack speed caps out at 2.5. That is, no matter how many AS items you buy, no matter how many AS buffs you get, you'll never get more than 2.5 autoattacks per seconds. This means that a Warwick with just 1.25 attack speed and a maxed W is already at the attack speed cap.

It also turns out that, because of Warwick's ultimate, it's really good to build the on-hit items like Wit's End, Malady, and Black Cleaver. All three of these boost your attack speed (so does Madred's Bloodrazors if you complete that item). And you're already getting the attack speed boots. So you end up WELL over 1.25 attack speed before your W. (I think a full build Warwick, depending on item selection, for me is in the neighborhood of 1.9-2.1 attack speed without the W. At that point, I only need 25% attack speed boost to cap it out, and I get 20% with just one point in W.)

Really, the main reason I end up suggesting W over E is simply because it will give your teammates half of the buff. It's amazing for taking out objectives. You'll max out W at level 13, I believe. At this point, if you're getting good gold income, a max W is already more than enough to max your attack speed. You're only maxing it because it really helps your teammates dish out a lot more damage (they get 50% attack speed buff, and this will cap out any AD carry with at least 1.67 attack speed).

So the problem with maxing W before Q is related to the fact that there is an attack speed cap, and you'll have wasted points in W because you're putting yourself over the cap and you're not around teammates often enough this early in the game for them to make use of the buff. It's fine to have it maxed by 13 though, because this is mid-game. Teams start assembling to fight teamfights as early as level 8 sometimes. If all your teammates are near you, it's really useful to make them all attack 50% quicker, even if you're only attacking like 35% quicker (instead of 100%) because of the attack speed cap.


I will reiterate though, at level 1, it is still best to take W. You CAN still manage to get blue buff down starting with Q, it's just slightly faster (and you lose less health) starting with W.


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RockLobster88

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Do you have any other hints for some of the other junglers I play as? Throw Udyr into the mix, I forgot I had him, he's the first one I picked up.


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RockLobster88

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
I guess it kind of depends. The thing is, on top of your auto-attacks, Q gives you some quick lifesteal. And it's all at once. So after a point in W, Q will help you keep your health up and do some quick damage to jungle mobs. I think probably more importantly, Q is good for attacking enemy champions.

PLUS... maxing W on Warwick can become pretty pointless (for the self-buff anyway). For each point in W, you get 20% attack speed. That means at level 5, you get 100% attack speed. And your teammates get 50%. The thing is though, attack speed caps out at 2.5. That is, no matter how many AS items you buy, no matter how many AS buffs you get, you'll never get more than 2.5 autoattacks per seconds. This means that a Warwick with just 1.25 attack speed and a maxed W is already at the attack speed cap.

It also turns out that, because of Warwick's ultimate, it's really good to build the on-hit items like Wit's End, Malady, and Black Cleaver. All three of these boost your attack speed (so does Madred's Bloodrazors if you complete that item). And you're already getting the attack speed boots. So you end up WELL over 1.25 attack speed before your W. (I think a full build Warwick, depending on item selection, for me is in the neighborhood of 1.9-2.1 attack speed without the W. At that point, I only need 25% attack speed boost to cap it out, and I get 20% with just one point in W.)

Really, the main reason I end up suggesting W over E is simply because it will give your teammates half of the buff. It's amazing for taking out objectives. You'll max out W at level 13, I believe. At this point, if you're getting good gold income, a max W is already more than enough to max your attack speed. You're only maxing it because it really helps your teammates dish out a lot more damage (they get 50% attack speed buff, and this will cap out any AD carry with at least 1.67 attack speed).

So the problem with maxing W before Q is related to the fact that there is an attack speed cap, and you'll have wasted points in W because you're putting yourself over the cap and you're not around teammates often enough this early in the game for them to make use of the buff. It's fine to have it maxed by 13 though, because this is mid-game. Teams start assembling to fight teamfights as early as level 8 sometimes. If all your teammates are near you, it's really useful to make them all attack 50% quicker, even if you're only attacking like 35% quicker (instead of 100%) because of the attack speed cap.


I will reiterate though, at level 1, it is still best to take W. You CAN still manage to get blue buff down starting with Q, it's just slightly faster (and you lose less health) starting with W.
I also found that you aren't so reliant on mana if you max your W. Then again, that might be a trait of Lanewick.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

08-24-2012

I've only tried Amumu once or twice during one of his free weeks. I have Alistar but I've only played support Alistar, not jungle. I have Shaco, but I've never played him. I didn't get around to trying Udyr during his free week last week.

Nunu is the other champion that I consider myself pretty good with in the jungle.
I know how to Rammus jungle, I just don't like doing it because the enemy always ends up AP heavy in blind pick (and I rarely get to jungle in draft).
I've also jungled with Master Yi, but I think he's a trash jungler and wouldn't suggest it.
Also, I'm working on Xin Zhao during his free week.

I have a growing list of champions that I'm going to be learning to jungle with in the near future (Alistar, Amumu, Dr Mundo, Jax, Lee Sin, Malphite, Tryndamere, Volibear).


But really, honestly, my suggestion to you for now is to just stick with Warwick for a while. As I said at first, he's not that great in the long run and there are tons of better jungling options, but Warwick is the absolute best option there is for learning to jungle. You should play him, and only him, until you get really comfortable and confident with the role the jungler plays. Once you have no more questions about how to jungle, then start learning how to jungle with different champions and come back with specific questions about those specific champions.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster88 View Post
I also found that you aren't so reliant on mana if you max your W. Then again, that might be a trait of Lanewick.
Jungle Warwick doesn't have to worry about mana because of blue buff.
Lane Warwick doesn't have to worry about health nearly as much as jungle Warwick.

Although technically, when laning, you should only be last-hitting minions, and you should only use your W when you're actually attacking the enemy champion.

With that said, if I'm laning as Warwick, I probably reverse Q and W. I'd start with Q (since you won't be fighting the enemy champion much at level 1), then go W, W, E, W, R. Because if I'm laning as Warwick it's most likely because it's blind pick and my team doesn't have a jungle and I felt like playing warwick in lane for some reason. The list of champions I'd rather solotop with before Warwick is pretty long. But that's just personal opinion.


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RockLobster88

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Thank you, sir. This sincerely helps. And what should I do about the backlash of not being too useful in ganks?


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster88 View Post
Thank you, sir. This sincerely helps. And what should I do about the backlash of not being too useful in ganks?
It's not that Warwick is useless in ganks, it's just that there are a lot of champions that have a lot better ganks than Warwick because Warwick has no form of CC.

So, compared with Nunu, who will run in and slow the enemy with his snowball, then Nunu provides himself and his teammate with an attack speed/run speed buff (and Nunu can do this starting at level 3), Warwick's ganks are just weaker.

But with that said, Warwick's ultimate is a very strong ganking option when used correctly.

I should add, one of the things that's important for Warwick ganking, turn off the E. Keep it off. And then don't turn it on until the enemy knows you're there anyway. I hate it when a Warwick tries to come gank my lane and the enemy just runs away because Warwick's E gave the gank away.

But anyway, what Warwick lacks in ganking power for levels 1-5, he can try to make up for from level 6 on. Level 6 ganks are strong, and from at least level 7 (perhaps earlier, but 7 is the earliest I've done it), you can solo dragon.

Killing dragon is 190 gold for everyone on your team plus 25 gold for yourself. This is more gold than each laner would get if you provided one killing gank to all 4 laners in the first five levels. And Warwick can kill dragon solo, which means the laners are still able to just sit in their lane farming minions and harassing the enemy. And this is how you MUST make it up to your teammates. As warwick, there is no excuse to let the enemy team kill dragon ever. It takes it 6 minutes to respawn, so make note of when you killed it, and take it out for a second date 6 minutes later. Continue ad infinitum until your team doesn't need gold anymore.

And just because Warwick's ganks are weak doesn't mean you should never attempt ganking with him pre-6. You just have to look for an over-extended enemy. If the enemy is pushed all the way to your tower, if you run up and give yourself and your teammate the W buff, you can both get a lot of damage done to the enemy in the time it takes for him to get back to his turret (if he makes it).


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Lord Puppy Fury

Senior Member

08-24-2012

One thing I've found is it's good to jungle with a "how can I help the team?" mentality. At 7:20, I'm stealing enemy blue and then immediately circling back to give mid our blue. Even if I can't steal blue, I'm still giving our blue to mid because that is a giant advantage for our team. If I don't need the XP from red 2nd time it spawns, I'll give it to a side lane. I won't hesitate to secure a kill, but me getting the kill isn't the whole purpose of a gank. A lot of junglers think they're supposed to be these godly assassins who solo the whole enemy team. A good jungler, however, sets up their whole team to slowly and steadily snowball out of control.

Drop wards at the jungle entrances and enemy buff camps. Having you plus a side lane show up to ambush an enemy jungler at their buff is good for you and psychologically devastating for them.

Don't be afraid to call the shots if you need to. Tell a lane to stop pushing if you want to gank through the river. Tell a lane to push and flush the enemy back if you're going to ninja gank from the brush next to/behind the tower. Ask for a hard leash so you can go steal red. Ask your team to help you help them by remembering to ward. If everyone's warding, the enemies can't flinch on the map without you knowing about it, and that is a huge advantage.


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KneeShot

Member

08-24-2012

some more thoughts on warwick (from a 2 week experience jungler)

i usually did what pogopogopogo said

and i added some small steps so as to keep up the objective list
after clearing blue buff, i look at the neighboring lanes to see if there is a ganking opportunity
if yes, go for a gank, but aimed to make the enemy to use summoner
if no, go clear the rest of the jungle
and check if i can gank any neighboring lane every time i clear a camp

whenever i see the enemy jungler ganking my team
if i am at another side of the map and smite is up, i go counter jungle
if smite is down, rush in and ward the buff
if i am near the lane, go counter gank or 1 v 1 the enemy jungler in the jungle if he/she is low after gank

this way you will be more aware of opportunities and be more active for your team

for the skills, after taking 2 points at Q and that starting point on W, put E > Q until E is at level 3, then max Q right away
this is because E's range scales up double from level 1 to level 3 (1500 to 3100)
good for playing mind games with enemies and get the running boost

and one more note in team fights or ganking:
use ult on the one who can easily disrupt your ult if there is any CC
or just save your ult to pin down an enemy while they are fleeing
except you know your ult followed by your teammates' attack can one shot the enemy

but there is something i want to ask
1. because WW doesn't have any sort of CC pre-6, i usually take ghost over flash to aid in gank, is this good or bad in general?
2. i also tried using boots to start instead of long sword, without leash (because my teammates ignored me)
i need to burn one pot to get blue (unnecessary though, i came out with nearly full health after Q-ing the two lizards), how is that?
3. how much stat do i need to solo dragon at level 7?

my runes page isn't the most suited for jungling
i get all AD runes and only yellow is armor


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