What do Noxians think of the Rakkor?

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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Considering that according to Pantheon's lore, that the Rakkor just come down from the slopes of Mount Targon to wipe out entire battalions of Noxus and Demacia just for laughs? Doesn't this put the Noxians in a weird spot of actually having someone else that is clearly stronger than they are?


The Noxians revere strength. And it is heavily implied that the Rakkor are stronger than the Noxians individually, with the general attitude of "preferring to battle soldiers of either the Noxian or Demacian armies only when outnumbered at least ten to one ",

or

"....hoping they had more reinforcements."
― Pantheon, standing amidst the pieces of a brutalized Noxian battalion.


So clearly the Noxians have gotten their asses whupped by the Rakkor over and over, and usually outnumbered. By their own code of revering strength, shouldn't the Noxians subjugate themselves to the stronger tribe? I would think they would pay at least some homage to the only people even crazier then they are, preferring to fight them at a ratio of 10 to 1.

Thoughts?


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Gurhal

Junior Member

08-18-2012

U.S.A values freedom, yet I can't recall the last time I saw news on how they were freeing people across the globe.

I believe it is the same thing.

"We value power!"
"Okay! I'm more powerful!"
"No you're not, you're cheating."
"No I am not! I just ravaged your whole army single-handed!"
".... Shut up or I'll feed!"


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Sortof. The Rakkor also practice killing half of their population (Leona's lore) during their teen years by forcing all teens to fight to the death in a one-on-one battle with another teen as a rite-of-passage.

The main flaw that the spartans had on earth, ultimately leading to their downfall, was that 10 soldiers that you can divide up and send to points A, B, and C are more valuable than one soldier who can fight with the power of 10, when it comes to the scale of actually winning wars. The spartans had a similar practice. The normal response to a child failing a test was to torture them to death. This normally started for children around the age of 7.

Since the Rakkor have a similar practice, they could never legitimately conquer anything or hold territory simply because they do not have the manpower to do so. They can sit ontop of their mountain until someone eventually decides their mountain has resources worth taking (which it doesn't, as far as anyone is aware). It doesn't matter if you're a super-duper soldier equivalent to 10 or 20 men. You cannot be everywhere at the same moment. If you need a small number of people to hold one point, you will be advantaged, but you cannot expand.

The Noxian philosophy is basically "make men out of everyone by drafting everyone, and make it profitable on an individual level to stay in the military" - this had the same effect that the identicle policy set in place on earth by the mongolians had. Pretty much everyone in the society has weapons, has killed people, etc.

The Noxian philosophy of strength can be applied to a gigantic population capable of fielding large armies to defeat other gigantic nations capable of fielding large armies. The purpose being to defeat enemies and eventually sieze their territory. The Rakkor cannot do this.

In short, you have twelve men. You want to manufacture a tank for each of the 12 men to drive around. You could spend all the resources for those 12 tanks, instead of on building 12 tanks, on building one nice tank for one of those 12, leaving the other 11 wandering about on foot. Or you can lower the quality of the individual tank somewhat in return for all-around efficiency with a dozen tanks.

Not to say that a tank can be crewed by one person, but you get the metaphor. The Rakkor can fight on an individual level. They cannot conquer or topple nations.


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Renekton Bot

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Senior Member

08-18-2012

Noxus values Noxus. They probably look at the Rakkor and think "Well, they fight, but they don't fight for Noxus. **** 'em."


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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457 View Post
Sortof. The Rakkor also practice killing half of their population (Leona's lore) during their teen years by forcing all teens to fight to the death in a one-on-one battle with another teen as a rite-of-passage.

The main flaw that the spartans had on earth, ultimately leading to their downfall, was that 10 soldiers that you can divide up and send to points A, B, and C are more valuable than one soldier who can fight with the power of 10, when it comes to the scale of actually winning wars. The spartans had a similar practice. The normal response to a child failing a test was to torture them to death. This normally started for children around the age of 7.

Since the Rakkor have a similar practice, they could never legitimately conquer anything or hold territory simply because they do not have the manpower to do so. They can sit ontop of their mountain until someone eventually decides their mountain has resources worth taking (which it doesn't, as far as anyone is aware). It doesn't matter if you're a super-duper soldier equivalent to 10 or 20 men. You cannot be everywhere at the same moment. If you need a small number of people to hold one point, you will be advantaged, but you cannot expand.

The Noxian philosophy is basically "make men out of everyone by drafting everyone, and make it profitable on an individual level to stay in the military" - this had the same effect that the identicle policy set in place on earth by the mongolians had. Pretty much everyone in the society has weapons, has killed people, etc.

The Noxian philosophy of strength can be applied to a gigantic population capable of fielding large armies to defeat other gigantic nations capable of fielding large armies. The purpose being to defeat enemies and eventually sieze their territory. The Rakkor cannot do this.

In short, you have twelve men. You want to manufacture a tank for each of the 12 men to drive around. You could spend all the resources for those 12 tanks, instead of on building 12 tanks, on building one nice tank for one of those 12, leaving the other 11 wandering about on foot. Or you can lower the quality of the individual tank somewhat in return for all-around efficiency with a dozen tanks.

Not to say that a tank can be crewed by one person, but you get the metaphor. The Rakkor can fight on an individual level. They cannot conquer or topple nations.
I wasn't saying the Rakkor SHOULD do anything. I was saying that the Noxians are awfully silent on a small tribe on Mount Targon who whup their asses nine ways to Sunday. You'd think they'd hold some level of recognition for the paragons of power they so revere.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaoLong View Post
I wasn't saying the Rakkor SHOULD do anything. I was saying that the Noxians are awfully silent on a small tribe on Mount Targon who whup their asses nine ways to Sunday. You'd think they'd hold some level of recognition for the paragons of power they so revere.
The point is, this paragon comes at a severe price. 50% of your population in return for some supersoldiers isn't a fair tradeoff, especially when each one requires artifact weaponry (pantheon, leona) to maximize effectiveness. It's very possible that the Noxians look down on the Rakkor because they CAN'T conquer or expand. It's not a case of the Rakkor not wanting to expand. They can't.

It's a faustian deal.

"Hey Noxus, we have super soldiers. In return for us having super soldiers, we cannot expand or conquer territory because we killed off so much of our own population. Don't you respect us? Our power? Our super soldiers?"

And a Noxian will probably raise an eyebrow, and answer with a solid "No." - the whole point of having a /flex military is so you can defend your nation from any potential threat and expand that nation's territory, wealth, and power. The Rakkor cannot do the expansion part.

Imagine if someone told you "hey, I have a lot of knowledge, in fact, I sacrificed my family to a demon to buy the knowledge. Also I can never leave this library or I will lose all my knowledge. But I can kick your ass in a game of scrabble! Don't you respect me for knowing more than you?"

What would your answer be? A "yes"?

You might even look on the Rakkor with pity, not admiration. Does a faustian deal offer some benefits? Yes. Does that mean you should automatically take said faustian deal for yourself? Most certainly not.


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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Wait... since when did the Noxians ever care about at what price power ever comes at? Katarina herself said that Swain giving up Kalamandra for personal power in Noxus was a "strong move." They clearly care more about the ends than the means, and they respect any kind of strength, even if the big picture, they are worse off. (i.e, giving up Kalamandra just so one dude can get a promotion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457
"Hey Noxus, we have super soldiers. In return for us having super soldiers, we cannot expand or conquer territory because we killed off so much of our own population. Don't you respect us? Our power? Our super soldiers?"

And a Noxian will probably raise an eyebrow, and answer with a solid "No." - the whole point of having a /flex military is so you can defend your nation from any potential threat and expand that nation's territory, wealth, and power. The Rakkor cannot do the expansion part.
I would think the last answer they would give is a solid no. They regularly kill off weak children in their own city anyhow just by abandoning them. You think they give a **** about how much the Rakkor sacrifice for their own strength? I would think a Noxian would admire the Rakkor's commitment to warfare if faced with how much they gave up. Especially considering their results.

They might question how flexible the Rakkor's military is (not a very good point, seeing as their own "flexible" military gets trounced anyhow) or they might question the Rakkor's ability to conduct a sustained campaign. But the strength is undeniable, especially since they regularly beat their asses, and that alone will never lead a Noxian to dismiss the Rakkor so easiely.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Except...

Quote:
By their own code of revering strength, shouldn't the Noxians subjugate themselves to the stronger tribe?
That was the question I was addressing.

First off, why would Swain have some sort of obligation to protect Kalamanda? Caring about ends than means is a general principle of warfare. Making sure your means don't cripple you long term and allow you to reach those ends is part of strategic planning. What, exactly, is Swain's motivation to protect Kalamanda or act in their benefit? They are not a part of nor aligned with Noxus. How is there any relation between sacrificing a non-aligned party, one which considered siding with your enemies (Demacia)?

Respect strength even if they are worse off? Where, exactly, is that implied? Swain wanted to do a coup. How do you rationalize that Swain and his allies are "worse off" by obtaining more power?

"They regularly kill off weak children in their own city anyhow jusy by abandoning them" - I'm curious which bit of lore you're referring to - and on Earth, children are used as soldiers.

"A noxian would admire their commitment to warfare considering their results" - what results? What territories have they been able to capture and hold and expand to? You can, with numbers appropriate to your ratio and the benefit of your enemy wandering near your territory, win. Gratz. We're just going to conquer the rest of the planet, then stomp you with unbeatable odds.

One individual fighter may have strength worth acknowledging and respecting. But, you asked, why not embrace that one individual fighter's ideology. This is why. Because to do so would be to say "Hey, these guys can hold onto their territory nicely, but can't really do much else... so, why don't we copy them, and also give up the ability to actually expand in return for some defensive improvements?"

On the grander scale, that is suicidal. What will the Rakkor do in the event that a nation decided to legitimately declare war on them? They are ontop of a mountain. This territory is not worth the costs of taking it. But, if it were, then what? Suppose Demacia launched a full scale military invasion of their mountain, using Pitlover flying technology and Zaunite chemical weaponry. What happens to the Rakkor? To embrace such a philosophy is self-destructive because you cannot expand. If you cannot expand, someone else will expand, and eventually you will be outmatched. You can win ten to one. Okay, howabout a hundred to one with air support and artillery for your enemies or any other number of technologically advanced weapons.


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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Respect strength even if they are worse off? Where, exactly, is that implied? Swain wanted to do a coup. How do you rationalize that Swain and his allies are "worse off" by obtaining more power?

It was worse off for Noxus overall. They gave up a bid for Kalamandra in return for Swain's personal gain. It sucked for Noxus, but great for Swain. Katarina recognized that as a strong move, even though in the big picture, it probably didn't help Noxus overall.


"They regularly kill off weak children in their own city anyhow jusy by abandoning them" - I'm curious which bit of lore you're referring to - and on Earth, children are used as soldiers.


It's pretty clear in the lore that children in Noxus, the poor ones anyways, are left to fend for themselves mostly. If you're weak, you die, and no one bats an eye. If you survive, you were strong or cunning, and you deserve to survive. Not at all dissimilar from the Spartan training you're describing of.

"A noxian would admire their commitment to warfare considering their results" - what results? What territories have they been able to capture and hold and expand to? You can, with numbers appropriate to your ratio and the benefit of your enemy wandering near your territory, win. Gratz. We're just going to conquer the rest of the planet, then stomp you with unbeatable odds.

The results of kicking ass. Apparently, 10 to 1 odds start to approach a challenge to Rakkor troops when they fight Noxians. It is assumed that Rakkor troops regularly kick Noxian ass. Those results.

And could they hold territory? Who knows? Nothing in the lore states that the Rakkor don't have the military capability to start expanding. Most likely they have no reason to, and don't want to. And I don't think a Noxian would care all that much about territory anyhow-- their ultimate goal is power, not land. They're usually connected, but if you don't need it, who's going to tell you otherwise? You're powerful.



On the grander scale, that is suicidal. What will the Rakkor do in the event that a nation decided to legitimately declare war on them? They are ontop of a mountain. This territory is not worth the costs of taking it. But, if it were, then what? Suppose Demacia launched a full scale military invasion of their mountain, using Pitlover flying technology and Zaunite chemical weaponry. What happens to the Rakkor? To embrace such a philosophy is self-destructive because you cannot expand. If you cannot expand, someone else will expand, and eventually you will be outmatched. You can win ten to one. Okay, howabout a hundred to one with air support and artillery for your enemies or any other number of technologically advanced weapons.

Dude, you're arguing from a pragmatic standpoint. The Noxians definitely will go to any means to achieve victory, but that doesn't mean that the easiest route is the strongest.
Is the Rakkor's military strategy smart? Who knows? The essential question is whether the Noxians would see the Rakkor as strong, not whether or not some specific military tactic could blow them all up. I could see a Noxian as looking on the Rakkor as out-dated and obselete in teh War Tactics department, but as long as the Rakkor are whupping Noxian ass, and at 10 to 1 odds at that, I do believe the Noxians would see the Rakkor as strong, and as a challenge.



My question is how would the Noxians handle a group of people that are so obviously stronger than they are, at least in one very obvious area (troop skill). Humility? Envy? Respect? Admiration? I feel none of these really fiit.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-18-2012

Quote:
The essential question is whether the Noxians would see the Rakkor as strong, not whether or not some specific military tactic could blow them all up.
Except, as I said earlier, I was responding to...

Quote:
By their own code of revering strength, shouldn't the Noxians subjugate themselves to the stronger tribe?
This question.

And the answer is no. If one military tactic can blow you to bits, you're not kicking ass, you're being very fortunate that your enemies do not fire an arrow at your achilles heel. That's it - nothing beyond that point. In warfare, it's about who's nation lives, and who's nation dies. It's stated in their lore that the Rakkor need to limit their numbers because they lack resources. They cannot maintain a military campaign of conquest. You're not "kicking ass" in that scenario.

Quote:
My question is how would the Noxians handle a group of people that are so obviously stronger than they are, at least in one very obvious area (troop skill). Humility? Envy? Respect? Admiration? I feel none of these really fiit.
Do you mean if it were deemed worthwhile to address them when more pressing matters such as Demacia were rendered inert?

Use zaunite gas weapons, drop them from zepplins or gyrocopters, and find out if there's anything of their culture worth absorbing by picking over their dead city - would prolly be my first order if I found it worthwhile to do and couldn't persuede Leona to visit her people and tell them to mind their manners.

You see, this is the whole point. No one's fancy footwork or great K/D means anything if they lose the war.

Rakkor decided to ambush one of my patrols in an attack. Okay. Well, I'm going to gas the Rakkor village and kill all of their families. They thought it would be good sport to attack a patrol or a convoy or whatever, I thought it would be good sport to kill their children and unarmed citizens. Rakkor kicked the asses of my patrol? Fine. I kicked the asses of their culture and civilization by exterminating their population with chemical weaponry. Isn't that a funny joke?

And maybe, when it comes time to write the history book, it will say "Rakkor had good K/D. Then they got gassed. But had good K/D though." if I decide to do the honorable thing and not censor the history book to portray them as backward savages. But, ultimately, that is left up to me, the person writing the history book, to decide what I want future generations to know. Not to them, because they're all dead.

Not kicking much ass at that point.

Yeah. They took out several of my patrols. Yeah, on the frontline I lost about 15 for every one of them I killed.

Then I decided to massacre their unarmed population that would have given them a new generation of warriors and would have collected food for them.

Now that K/D spreadsheet is a little more balanced, huh? = )

I am sure they will feel mighty proud of their ass-kicking K/D now that they just saw their culture be destroyed and their families killed in a biological warfare attack, then starve if they decide to remain in their destroyed city which no longer has food production capabilities.

If I did that, how could they possibly be kicking ass? They kick ass if I agree to fight by their specific special terms? War doesn't work like that. The "results of kicking ass" in this scenario are pissing off the Noxian / Demacian / whoever else they attack- commander and having their families massacred.