List of things that I think would improve dominion.

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WaterD103

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Senior Member

08-12-2012

I think every game in existence can be improved, and dominion is no exception. This thread is meant to contain my wishlist for dominion that do not involve the essential Ranked.

1. Balance

My opinion on Dominion balance can be represented by my tier list which I'm going to keep updated as well as the rest of my wishlist. Which is based on my experience as a player, other player comments and watching all tournaments from NA and seeing results from EU.

The list is ordered from left to right.

Tier S: Must picks champs based on sheer power
Tier 1: Champs that are clearly better than average.
Tier 2: Champs that are ok to pick to fill the roles.
Tier 3: Extremly situational picks.
Tier F: Champs that are too weak to be worth picking.

Tier S: Kassadin,
Tier 1: Jayce, Jax, Teemo, Ezreal, Poppy, Pantheon, Urgot.
Tier 2: Rammus, Amumu, Wukong,Sona, Darius, Alistar, Blitzcrank, Ryze, Yorick, Cassiopeia, Maokai, Irelia,Malphite, Nunu, Jarvan, Lulu, Xin zaho, Malzahar, Skarner,Kog maw, Miss Fortune, Olaf, Fizz, Leblanc, Ahri, Janna, Diana, Graves, Udyr, Swain, Zyra, Kayle, Singed, Vayne,Taric, Corki, Rumble, Leona, Shaco, Nocturne, Brand, Varus, Orianna, Evelynn, Riven, Warwick, Talon.
Tier 3: Heimerdinger, Ashe, Mordekaiser, Caitlyn, Shyvana, Vladimir,Shen, Soraka, Nasus, Twisted fate, Karthus,Katarina, Draven, Nidalee, Sivir,Zilean,Lux,Anivia,Gangplank,Dr.Mundo,Morgana , Fiddlesticks, Annie, Galio, Ziggs, Trundle, Gragas, Sion, Fiona, Hecarim, Lee sin, Master yi, Garen, Twitch, Volibear, Nautilus, Cho'gath, Akali, Kennen, Tristana, Xerath.
Tier F: Viktor, Karma, Veigar, Renekton, Sejuani, Tryndamare.

2. Specific Champ Problems.

Kassadin: Kassadin insane mobility and very good lategame is backed up with a strong burst damage (which is strong in dominion), and a great ability to defend points from a single target thanks to a kite that is extremly hard to punish. My problem is that I can't figure out a solution for him. Last nerf was a good direction, but not even close to make kassadin reasonable.
Unlike other balance problems in dominion, I don't see how items change, non crazy aura changes, summoner spells change or any reasonable solution would help to nerf kassadin to reasonable levels.

Some ideas is to make a specific Kassadin hate item (as it existed for Jax) an item that for example allows a champ to apply a debuff to a champ, a champ with that debuff can't dash or blink. Something very hatefull on that side which seems pretty extreme.

Another is to make teleports not overjump walls, though that would be a very small nerf.

Jayce: I think the only real problem is that he is probably the best bottom laner right now. Most champs can't even fight with him. He is good at avoiding ganks, and once he farm bottom during 15 minutes he can just go top and take the game. Basically the problem is that his laning skills are just too much. I think he needs SR changes too, so I will wait for them.

Ezreal: Mini kassadin, he has insane range, an ult that stops caps at long range and the ability to blink all over the place, why pick any other ranged ad?. I can't think of a solution to this guy, same problem than kassadin. I think though removing trinity force would help here.

Jax: Ok early game, monster late. I think removing trinity force would help here. Definitely would help removing revive, he is one of the guys that loves revives more than the average.

Pantheon: I think most of the problem comes with it's insane synergy with Revive. He would still be pretty good without revive.

Poppy: A very good champ that benefits too much from walls being all over the place and that is weak in sr because poor laning. I hope they remake him to be stronger in SR but weaker in dominion.

Urgot: I think Urgot is only insanely strong as a bottom. I can imagine hatefull items vs urgot or items removal like brutalizer work.
Revive removal or extreme revive nerf would help (more on that later).

Teemo: This is a champ that has been bothering me late, I still not sure he is problematic, a solution if he is a problem would be to make his shroms not invulnerable to spells but just have 999 MR. That way if you have sweeper you can use AOE to find shrooms. And maybe in some way to allow lightbringer to do the same. Also improving the very weak elixir would help.

3. Summoner spells.

Revive: The question is not if revive is the most powerfull spell (it is beyond reasonable doubt). But what's the problem with it. Many people complain that revive is the same than flash in summoner rift. The first think im gonna say, is that flash is a big reason SR is very boring to me and half the reason i dropped it. The second thing im gonna say is that Riot balanced SR around flash. You can't balance dominion around Revive. Because there won't be specific dominion related champion changes. Mass revives hurt the balance. Everyone should use it but not every champ benefits as good of it. High mobility champs have more benefit from it since they can rejoin to the battle more times with the hp buff. Pantheon is one of the champs that shine because of revive. It also benefit more champs with higher amount of Armor and Magic resistance for obvius reasons.
Revive is also guilty for reducing action bottom. Sometimes it seems a marginal good play to gank bottom, until you realize that the opponent didn't use revive and your marginal good play become a mediocre or just bad play.
Revive also hurts even more champs that rely on ultimate. The constant battles make ulti reliant champs weaker than normal, add revive and they just become close or just unplayable.
Revive just polarize more the negative effects dominion have on balance and unlike FlashSR the game can't be balanced around it.

Garrison: All I'm gonna say about garrison, is that if it becomes a popular spell it could damage the balance greatly, since many champs depend on "safer" zones to stay. This could happen if revive was removed as a viable option.

The existence of those two spells also help to produce some stagnant bottom lane wars that I think most agree are boring. Nothing worse than a Nunu vs Udyr bottom both with Revive and garrison. They can't kill each other, they can't outpush each other and even a successfull costly gank will get neutered by a Revive Garrison combo.

4. Items.

-CDR: CDR is a huge stat in dominion. In consecuence, CDR items are very valuable. AP champs have the worse for those stats. One is lucidity boots. Yet Ap champs are strongly balanced around sorcerer shoes. So they have to do this opportunity cost choice, that is too costly. Later they do not have really good options. Morello tome is sad, and sweeper while good only gives 10%. More important, again AP champs are balanced around Rabdon deathcap. That is a very expensive items, and if you go that item, you can't get CDR items soon enough.
For that reason heavy ap champs, specially ranged ones are weaker in dominion, and sometimes too weak. It doesn't help that many of the AP champs rely on their long cooldown ultimate, and revive strong presence hurt them a lot.

-Casters AD: There are tons of items that are good against autoattackers. Thornmail, Warden's mail, Ninja tabi, and the all time favorite Frozen hearth. But there is not a single good item against Ad casters. Which are among the strongest archetype in dominion. I think a good anti Caster Ad item would be welcome.

-Defensive MR: One change I do not like in dominion in banshee's veil into odin's veil. As known Dominion already slightly favor more tanky champ. It took an item that is specially great on squishy champs like banshee's veil and make into an item that's only good if you are already tanky. I would like a good MR option for squishy champs, like Banshee's veil was.

-Ranged AD Itemization: I think Ranged ad are way better than carry ap counterparts in terms of items, yet there are 3 things I would like to see. A) A replacement for the lack of wriggles. I would like an early attack+Armor item like wriggles to help early game, I would add to the cost critical strike to not make it an obvius choice to Ad casters, which are right now the most favored class in dominion in terms of items. B) I like entrophy and how it could favor ranged ad. Though it being good may dangerously be a good item for caster AD. I would like in some AD a decent option for a slow item. Since those carries that can carry trinity are ok, but those who can't use trinity, do not have a good option for an item that slows. C) A good Razor item , instead of the current kite (which is quite bad) could help to serve as safety net vs a too tanky metagame. Though admittedly since warmog's left dominion there seems to be no signs of that metagame returning.

-Caster AD: The most favored class in dominion have maybe too good items in Trinity force and Ghostblade and are items that maybe should be given a look. Probably the safest and best option is to give other classes as good items, but regardless should be have into account that those two items define in big part the metagame.
In addition Frozen hearth is an awesome item in dominion, but can't tell if it's presence it's for the better or for the worse of dominion.

-Rylais: I think Rylais is an item that help casters in dominion, but I think right now is slightly expensive, I think it would benefit to recieve some kind of small buff.

5. Bottom.
Ive talked quite a bit of bottom, and while some lanes are fun, some are very stagnant and boring, an udyr with Garrison revive is that kind of example, is a champ that can't really put much pressure, but is extremly hard to gank.
Some help to it would maybe make something more interesting to fight for in bottom, maybe bottom health realic could be something similar to storm shield?.. Though revive removal could be a partial solution, as would be changing the way to take points.
Another option here would be to open a path between relic and bottom shrine, so there is more fluid transit there, maybe even from bottom shrine to bottom middle health relic. That way it would create a more fluid movement of champs bottom there that now needs to do too many curves and turns.

Also read teamfight point 7. If 5v5 teamfights happen that means that bot have more things to do.

Something else that I think would help bottom to become more active is to increase recall time as to make a little harder to reinforce bot point when ganked.

6. Pushing/controlling/interrupting points.
There are some problems imo with control points. One is what allow the backdoor strategy. Backdoor SHOULD be part of the strat in dominion and is more than fine, and I would even encourage it, specially group backdoor. However, the what's called "pooters" strat is not fun or that much interesting.

I think a good change for that would be to make the single non creep cap slightly slower, but in response make creeps faster to take towers and decrease the diminishing returns of multiple cappers.

A more subjective thing is the fact that some champs need creeps to take towers, and some champs can kite them out of it. Early on creating pushes is possible, but later, no matter how big the push, the creep wave gets out with a single shoot.

Another thing is when you manage to use creeps to neuter the point, but then it's impossible to take since no more creeps are comming and you can be kited indefinitly. A solution to the (I don't know if it's a problem in first place) would be that if you are standing in the neutral point, creeps pop out of your points to capture, or that you can capture a point very slowly just by be standing on it. Doing these changes though can be a mistake and create bigger problems.

Another controversial thing that should be considered is the way interrupting captures is done, I personally think it's a problem that some champs can cancel interrupt from very far away (Ezreal and kog specially comes to mind)

7.Tteamfights.
I think something many people miss in dominion are those 5v5 confrontation, they exist, but they are rare. Three things that would help.
a) Making quests less random and more valuable.
b) Changing the storm shield. If it would be a buff that takes one team or the other it would increase situations where both teams encounter in middle (also the buff should take longer to take but should pop up more often)
c) crate a one time or two time events that both teams really want to meet somewhere (though this is just the same than Strong quest or strong buff)

8. Hud
In Dominion is extremely important to know what enemy champs are visible in the map or not or dead. I have to press tab every 5 seconds, could plz that information be on the screen without need of tabbing all the time?

In addition I would like to have a timer for the central buff so I know when the buff is gonna respawn.

Another good change to the hud would be to remove the score and have CS and Gold instead.

A feature I would like to have in general is the ability to see CDR of other champs that aren't you, I think it's a very important stat, that is for some reason, invisible.

9. Seconds to waste
The pre game start is too long 1:20 is too much and most people just use it to dance. Can we reduce that time?

10. Death timers

The first complain is that 1 point difference is too little of advantage to apply bonus timer, I would say 25/0.5 seconds 50/1 second 100/1.5 second 150/ 2 seconds

Second the window timers, are chaotic and annoying and create very weird situations. Specially when dying 12 later means you have a 12 second bonus, but dying 13 seconds later means you get no bonus. I don't even like window timers in first place, but if they exist, so chaotic, extreme and big is just bad.

Third. I would maybe like a rubberband mechanic based on points controlled. That is a 0.5 bonus on death timer for each extra controlled point. It's not that hard to comeback from big point differences, but it is from being 4 points to 1. The clock start dropping very fast and by the time you get TWO point backs, its hard to not lose already 150/200 points. I've only seen two or three times (in over 2.5k games) a 5 points to 0 comeback.

Regardless of my suggestions that can be for the better or for the worse, the death timer and comeback mechanic should be look into it.

11. Skills that doesn't transfer well
This is a complicated point because many of the champs that have these skills aren't exactly top in popularity in SR right now, so it's hard to know if this is an issue with dominion or an issue in general. But I feel some champs get hurt a lot by how bad some skills transfers.
Twisted fate Passive
Nasus Q skill
Veigar Q Skill
Cho Gath Size
Energy
Rage
Non mana champs that do not have resource advantage here (Because mana champions have so much mana at disposal)

I feel in the case of skills making it bigger when it affect champions or just make the effect double or triple for the effects of minions in Dominion, would be a solution.
Energy and rage could have an aura too or benefit more from health packs.

In whatever case I think these should be looked into.


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hinderlopen

Senior Member

08-12-2012

1: Hecarim, Kayle, and Amumu should be in tiers 1 or 2. They are, in order, a high damage bruiser, a very safe ad carry, and a super tank.

2: Good analysis of the OP champs, consider adding lulu in here, but I agree with your opinions here.

3: no comment! dont want to bother with it xD

4: sorc shoes and athene's holy grail is a very good combo to rush. But sometimes the enemy can stack MR or has a bunch of MR from runes/base stats, in this case athene's and ionian boots followed by void staff will actually be better to get. I agree that the glass cannon ap champs can be a lot more situational in dominion, they really need to be behind their 3 other team members and can be picked off easily by the assassin comps. However, if they are allowed to stay alive and be in range to cast, they are extremely useful and almost guarantee winning a teamfight.

5: Even in SR you can't get away from the possibility of farm lanes, like morgana vs cass. Neither can leave without losing a wave or two and neither can push each other out of lane.

6: There's not really a way to nerf Pooters strat without hurting other areas, speed shrines and health relics are important for mobility and for holding your own towers. And you really dont want to nerf mobility in this game, it's very important for normal strategies. Your proposed changes seem alright for balance, but it's a very small nerf to the pooters strat.

7: The team comps aren't exactly designed for 5v5 battles, 4v4 is the most you should be expecting.
A: There is definitely a problem with the quests, please explain what you want by saying "less random and more valuable"
B: can't say much, i barely use the buff.
C: that would actually be cool, if the reward was making your mid and bot un-capable for 1 minute it would be a really good advantage for a short enough time.


Overall you have a good idea about what needs to be improved.


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Luninareph

Senior Member

08-12-2012

Karma should be in Tier 3. Possibly even Tier 2. She can be extremely potent if she knows how to play and her allies know how to work with her playstyle, and the ambient gold of Dominion makes it a lot easier for her to reach her full build. She's also designed to benefit melee allies, and Dom plays to tanky melee fighters' strengths, making her a valuable addition to the right team composition. However, she takes a lot of experience and team synergy to be viable.


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naotasan

Senior Member

08-12-2012

1. List seems accurate... except for about 15 champions are misplaced. Akali is not Tief F and Lulu is cheesecake tier hands down. Also Jayce where?

2. Seems the only way to counter a Kassadin is to ban him or pick him yourself in blind pick. Other than that, there are counter picks.

3. no comment

4. Dominion has different item builds, who knew?

5. no comment

6. I believe the capping system is bugged. Not sure if riot knows about it or not.

7. I've noticed a lot of small team fights, such as 2v2s or 3v3s, more often than anything else, and those are always fun to watch and participate in.


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Sizmic

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Senior Member

08-13-2012

I think you bring up good and solid points and I hope riot see's this and works on some changes to improve dom.

I used to play regularly but with the neglect it has been difficult to maintain interest.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

08-13-2012

Finally a Dominion player posting his opinions based on his experience instead of a strayed Sr guy strolling around saying "hey guys Dominion sux cuz has no jungle lets add dragon!!"


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irott

Senior Member

08-13-2012

I actually like the fact that there are no 5v5 team fights. I much more prefer the smaller skirmishes.

Ideal Meta for me would be 2v2 bot and 3v3 top. The best of both worlds.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

08-13-2012

3. As fun as I find clutch Revive plays, I don't like that it's a 'given'. I want to feel like my choices are all equally powerful. I don't know if that means nerf Revive, or create more powerful versions of the other spells. I'd be interested to see how a buffed Flash would function on Dominion, perhaps with the same range on a shorter cooldown. Or a buffed Ghost that gave a flat bonus instead of %, which would interact better with Speed Shrines. ...small tweaks of that nature.

4. I still have a hard time believing that APs have poor itemization. I don't think it stems from lack of CDR (Hextech Sweeper, DFG, Morello's, Athene's, etc.) but because of how casters are intended to work on SR. They hang out behind the fight, tossing in AoE and the occasional CC, poking and kiting. It works there because of the higher degree of map awareness with less effort (wards and the prevalence of fights in lanes). In Dominion, the opportunity for gap-closing is much easier, poking and kiting is much more difficult without someone flying out of the fog with speed shrine and annihilating you before you have any valuable contribution. Despite your best efforts to focus REALLY hard on positioning, unless you're packing a hard reliable stun or displacement, many champions will easily close on you. I don't quite know what the solution is to that problem, but I personally find AP itemization to be adequate as long as you rid yourself of the notion that rushing Deathcap is necessary.

5. Agreed. I can't tell if this was intentional in the Crystal Scar's design, but bottom seems to contradict the entire premise of the map: removal of laning, frequent teamfights, fast pace. I'd like to see more incentives placed on those points to encourage more dynamic play on the map for lower Elos. It seems high Elo play tends to be incredibly dynamic, which I find a lot of fun to watch.

6. Agreed.

7. Agreed. While skirmishes are very prevalent, the lack of big 5v5 teamfights is unfortunate. I don't want it to be a great idea to roam around in a 5 man pack the entire game, but the occasional big fight would be a lot of fun. What if Stormshield Buff was nerfed, but could grant it's buff to everyone channeling it, and more channelers resulted in a longer channel time?

Most of all, I'd like Riot to take feedback from some of the most experienced Dominion players, and educate the community on how to really make the most of it. A really detailed spotlight on how the game isn't just a deathmatch, but a challenge of teamwork and resource allocation.


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Hamm3rhand

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Senior Member

08-13-2012

two comments for me - though full 5v5 fights are rare, 4v4 fights are very common (they happen almost always at the beginning of the game!) and I personally think thats fairly similar as far as positioning and needing to know what your teammates are thinking goes. Secondly, in the last DD my team played against POOTERSS and his infamous backcapping strat. It was really quite interesting, and added a whole new layer to the game, as it makes you pay very close attention to death timers, positioning and travel time between locations. If you have only played against random people trying to backcap, that might be one thing, but a team that is coordinated and knows what to expect from their dedicated backcapper is really strong and it is a perfectly legit strategy. I found it to be quite fun playing against people that were that coordinated and skilled.


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naotasan

Senior Member

08-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamm3rhand View Post
two comments for me - though full 5v5 fights are rare, 4v4 fights are very common (they happen almost always at the beginning of the game!) and I personally think thats fairly similar as far as positioning and needing to know what your teammates are thinking goes. Secondly, in the last DD my team played against POOTERSS and his infamous backcapping strat. It was really quite interesting, and added a whole new layer to the game, as it makes you pay very close attention to death timers, positioning and travel time between locations. If you have only played against random people trying to backcap, that might be one thing, but a team that is coordinated and knows what to expect from their dedicated backcapper is really strong and it is a perfectly legit strategy. I found it to be quite fun playing against people that were that coordinated and skilled.
Bolded for emphasis