Running Garen Numbers on PBE

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Wolfalisk

Member

08-11-2012

Xypherous, can you explain to me why you can't just let Garen take the good without the bad? With the DPSers that have been released lately, Garen falls farther and farther behind (and loses to ALL of them 1v1, every time).

You designed Riven. Explain to me why Garen can't simply have the buffs without the nerfs considering we have something like Riven in the game.


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Karn Bishop

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshockk View Post
I wish I wasn't about to watch Serenity for the first time or I would probably be crunching some numbers on this topic, but at this point all I can do is comment on this epicness of the discussion.
You can't take the sky from me!


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Duke Br0heimer

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm fully aware of how easily our melee characters can be kited in general - though at this point - the problem of slows is a far greater one than individual kit solutions will remedy I think.
Months ago Morello acknowledged that mobility creep is a problem. I have not once seen you guys addressing how you you plan to combat this problem, instead you're releasing more and more champions with blinks, dashes and other escape mechanisms.
Maybe addressing this issue would greatly help out the melee characters with no gap closers in this game. Like... Garen?


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Anlysia

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Essentially, Garen's E previously would add critical strike damage to the 252 - However, in the new one, it would add critical strike damage to the 328 in this case - which means the benefit that you're getting from critical strike is what's scaling the ability late game.
Xypherous, Prometheius (or something, it's misspelled in his name) found a typo in my earlier numbers, and I added your modified base and /level damage in and re-ran the numbers on Judgment.

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9...pindamage2.png

Red is less damage under the new system, blue is more.

The picture is a little more rosy when I have complete numbers, and I can see where crit valuation comes into this. I would add crit numbers into this, but they're pointless. 1% of crit under the new system will always be more valuable than 1% crit under the old system. So it'll just make more levels viable.

I'm going to amend the OP because the numbers are just plain wrong, and apologize for taking you to task on them with incorrect information.

(Any other discussion in this thread isn't my business though...since I only talked about Judgment numbers...not any of the other topics. :P)


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Jassu

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WowGgPrettyEzTho View Post
Xypherous, can you explain to me why you can't just let Garen take the good without the bad? With the DPSers that have been released lately, Garen falls farther and farther behind (and loses to ALL of them 1v1, every time).

You designed Riven. Explain to me why Garen can't simply have the buffs without the nerfs considering we have something like Riven in the game.
If Riven is an issue on an individual level, then she should be addressed specifically and brought in-line with the rest of the roster. Pushing everyone else to her level instead is a bad way to go about balancing the game as a whole.


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SuicideCreamPuff

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Garen is still better than twitch now. Where is the red responses on the twitch threads. Screw Garen no one played him.


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Loveshockk

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskyraider View Post
Good movie, good series.

Enjoy.
Enjoying it so far. I was debating whether I should watch the series first BEFORE I watch it, but I wasn't sure how long it would be on On Demand, and for $1 no less. So I just thought why not.


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Karn Bishop

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
With that build, his damage would be increased with 'E' - because the skill scales much better off of your critical strike stat than it did before due to the 43% critical strike chance you have.

180 Bonus AD * 1.4 AD Ratio = 252 Bonus Damage.
180 Bonus AD + 119 Base Damage * 1.1 AD Ratio = 328 Damage in the Ratio.

Essentially, Garen's E previously would add critical strike damage to the 252 - However, in the new one, it would add critical strike damage to the 328 in this case - which means the benefit that you're getting from critical strike is what's scaling the ability late game (with that build specifically.)

Early game Brutalizer effectiveness is down - but since his Judgment has marginally greater base damage - the optimization here is to swap out flat AD for penetration. Granted, Chain Vest counters you pretty hard at that stage (but it would for both the flat AD build or the penetration build) but since Critical Strike is no longer a wasted stat due to the fact that Q now crits and E's effective multiplier from critical strikes are greatly magnified - the vast majority of ghostblade stats are relevant to you. (Okay, the attack speed on the active still sucks for you. That's just Ghostblade's problem.)
This is my counter argument http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7vS4z6ngQo


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Treyen

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Judgment's base damage should be on-par or stronger depending on base damage. It's true that he has to worry about the opponent having counterplay - but the actual damage of Judgment only decreases when you build full-on AD.

While Infinity Edge isn't doable on level 9 - Ghostblade will be.



I'm fully aware of how easily our melee characters can be kited in general - though at this point - the problem of slows is a far greater one than individual kit solutions will remedy I think.
You're aware of how easily kited he will be, yet you nerf him anyway? *logic


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-11-2012
8 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
This is my counter argument http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7vS4z6ngQo
I know Garen can get kited - I completely acknowledge your point in this case.

I'm working on anti-kite melee itemization in general. We'll see the first results post Season 2 finals.

Quote:
You're aware of how easily kited he will be, yet you nerf him anyway? *logic
Unfortunately - yes. I'm not solving his core innate kite-ability issue at this time because being kited isn't a champion-specific problem. It's a problem with slows and the ubiquitousness of slows at the moment.

I apologize - I live and make changes in a world where I'm trying to fragment out systems level problems with champion level problems and trying to solve them at the correct level.