Running Garen Numbers on PBE

First Riot Post
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Jassu

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noraver View Post
Infinity Edge by level 9 on a Garen who's early-game you nerfed.
Totally.
Now compare the value of crit at later levels where you have more AD being pumped into Judgement. The net is that the value of crit will increase a bit because more damage from Judgement can crit.


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RexSaur

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Most of the changes are ok,however i have some doubt in some :

-Increasing his ult CD at rank 1 to 160s...I mean really?Its not like we have another champion with an true damage version of it with 100s CD with a possible refresh...

-Both the change on the slow removal from E to Q and the E 20% slow when going through units only make garen's kiting problems even worse,just scrap those 2 changes.


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Kageras

Senior Member

08-10-2012

I'm not entirely too happy with what's happening to my ex-main Garen, but I guess it could be worse.

Before these buffs / nerfs, he was a counter to Darius. Every time they chose Darius, I chose Garen, and completely stomped on Darius. the Q into E as Darius ran away would kill any chance he had at trading with me, because he was silenced for the short trade. Now, the silence is almost half as long, so Darius will completely stomp on Garen by counter-pulling and then chunking him down.

Garen's passive was fine, but 10 seconds? Come on. Lvl 1-8 you relied on those 7 seconds for the sustain you needed. God forbid that one ranged minion poke you, just so you had to wait another 7.

Garen was a great early-game champion, and his silence + chasing with Q really glorified that.
Now, if you nerf his early game, how is he supposed to be anywhere near as good in late game?

Gold doesn't magically appear in Garen's pocket, Riot. He earned it through his lane dominance and his infamous bushwacks. Now, it's hard to say he'll have either.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-10-2012
6 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Infinity Edge by level 9 on a Garen who's early-game you nerfed.
Judgment's base damage should be on-par or stronger depending on base damage. It's true that he has to worry about the opponent having counterplay - but the actual damage of Judgment only decreases when you build full-on AD.

While Infinity Edge isn't doable on level 9 - Ghostblade will be.

Quote:
Doesn't this damage calculation also assume that his spin is landing to deal said proc damage? garen is just plain slower now then he was before and as a result just can't keep up with enemys to even do damage, maybe this is where the damage misconception is coming from after all you used to be able to put 1 point into Q and get full speed duration then you could max E for the damage and constantly apply damage unfortunately you just can't do that anymore due to how Q changed so as a result you need to actually max Q first which deprives you of your damage on level up from E so in turn it means no lane bullying for garen which means garen is zoned out hard.
I'm fully aware of how easily our melee characters can be kited in general - though at this point - the problem of slows is a far greater one than individual kit solutions will remedy I think.


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GodofBunnies

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Ah, I see the problem in this calculation. His base stats were also changed but you're not doing the math on that.

He has 4 less starting AD and gains 0.5 more per level - his AD scaling is now 56.1 + 3.5 rather than 60.1 + 3.

In general, Judgement's base damage without flat AD items is stronger or on par at every rank of the skill. With early flat AD itemization, Judgment doesn't snowball as fast or as hard early game - However, it means that AD penetration is a far stronger option in general due to the higher bases overall.
ur math still dont adds up

formula:
old: 210 + 1.4*bonus ad
new: 120 + 1.1*total ad
can also be written as 120 + 1.1*base ad + 1.1*bonus ad = 251 + 1.1*bonus

at lv 18 he has 119 base ad

(251 - 210) / 0.3 = 137 bonus AD (the breaking point where it becomes a nerf)

typical late game garen bonus ad:
80 (IE) + 50 (atmog) + 25(brutalizer) + 25 (hex drinker ) => approximately 180 bonus AD.

so you guys nerf his e after all


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Rebate

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Garen was one of my most played champions. I haven't played him in so long I can't even remember, I honestly don't know why I would EVER pick Garen now, even as a counter pick he sucks.

Why counter Akali with Garen when there is Rumble?

The power creep is obvious Riot, this isn't Vayne we are talking about where if we buff early game we have to nerf late game. Garen is extremely weak and I think these "buffs" just made him worse.


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Opreich

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Judgment's base damage should be on-par or stronger depending on base damage. It's true that he has to worry about the opponent having counterplay - but the actual damage of Judgment only decreases when you build full-on AD.

While Infinity Edge isn't doable on level 9 - Ghostblade will be.
You mentioned in another thread that Q can crit now?

What does that mean?


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Novasurge

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Watching the 'geniuses' at riot problem-solve is a real treat.


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The Best Lulu NA

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
How I read this.

By level 7 most champions like Irelia were standing in Judgment and not even moving since they could out damage it. To fix this we lowered Garen's early level damage so they could start doing this sooner, probably by level 4. We feel that allowing people to out damage judgment makes Garen entirely pointless. Also we buffed his late game. Except we didn't.

In this thread Riot realizes that Riven, Jax, Irelia, Darius, and Shen are real champions are not just figments of their imagination. Or doesn't, I dunno. I don't play Garen now so it doesn't really effect me.

(Honestly I could make a big post detailing just how silly the Garen changes are, but it's painfully obvious that Riot is in outright denial over how powercreeped top lane (and the whole game really) is and some champions are simply going to get the short end of the stick. It happened to Jarvan, it'll happen to Garen.)
jarvan isnt that bad


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Prometheius

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodofBunnies View Post
ur math still dont adds up

formula:
old: 210 + 1.4*bonus ad
new: 120 + 1.1*total ad
can also be written as 120 + 1.1*base ad + 1.1*bonus ad = 251 + 1.1*bonus

at lv 18 he has 119 base ad

(251 - 210) / 0.3 = 137 bonus AD (the breaking point where it becomes a nerf)

typical late game garen bonus ad:
80 (IE) + 50 (atmog) + 25(brutalizer) + 25 (hex drinker ) => approximately 180 bonus AD.

so you guys nerf his e after all
Add if you assume the same amount of crits on E, Judgement is still buffed because it now applies

100% Total AD on crit instead of 75% Bonus AD on crits.