[AD Caster Item] Xypherous's Avalanche - Please Help Me Refine This Idea!

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KobaltKode

Senior Member

07-30-2012

I think your concept is maybe a little too niche. I say this to you as a person who spends a lot of time shooting down his own ideas. This one reminds me slightly of one I thought up that I themed around a metronome! I will give you my reasoning for what I think about this item.

First off, kudos to you for not being to **** to understand that the concept is more important than the details. I do like where you were headed with the idea.

Stack duration would be a problem for a few reasons. First of which being global cooldowns and cast times. While most of the AD Casters are instant cast not all of them are. All of them have cast animations some of which they cannot cast during. Given a 0.5 second stack time, it may be impossible for certain champs to utilize.

Infinite stacking. I get that the point was to reward efficient combo casting, but you have to ask yourself one question...Outside of a Katarina landing kills, who can ever stack this passive past 4 stacks? This isn't even considering that the 4th will always be wasted. An AD caster has potentially 4 skills that they can cast, the first of which sees no reduction. Given the cooldowns of skills and the fact that they cannot be reduced below two seconds, the only way that the effect could be perpetual would be to have enough stacks so that all skills are at a 2 second cooldown [including your ult] and casting at the exact moment your stacks would run out.

Efficiency of cooldown reduction. Given that your stacks will only ever reach four and only apply on 3 of your skills [netting you six seconds of overall reduction], wouldn't it be simply more effective most times to simply buy a Brutalizer or another form of CDR? CDR probably matches this alone on your ULT.

It's not that your concept is horrible, it's that the details don't function in practice. I would recommend reconsidering the balance of your item. A stack duration change will help your idea a long way. A long enough duration to be utilized by AD Caster, but not too long as to be good enough for AP casters to use. You could also find another way to incentivize it's use by AD casters further by tying in an action that is more prevalent to them such as auto attacking, or dealing physical damage. You could also consider standard rotations and have a larger bonus per third cast [choose whether or not the focus of this item is to provide amazing reduction for your ult or to reward quick action with your burst combo].

My only real fear for an item like this is counterplay. I can take a general guess that the stack duration regardless will have a smaller window than most hard CCs. Meaning that it's use could be hampered when against a CC heavy team!

Goodluck to you sir and I hope my thoughts help you somehow!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TealNinje

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Future View Post
I still don't think you understand.

First spell cast (gains no benefit at all) -> second spell cast (gains the bonus of 1 stack) -> third spell cast (gains the bonus of 2 stacks) -> fourth spell cast (gains the bonus of 3 stacks)

At no point can any of the spells cast have their cooldowns post-Avalanche reduced below 2 seconds (this stops low CD abuses, especially Ryze). To illustrate this further, look at the following information.

(40% CDR)
Overload - 2.1 seconds
Rune Prison - 8.4 seconds
Spell Flux - 8.4 seconds
Desperate Power - 30 seconds

Q (2.1) -> W (8.4 - 1, so 7.4) -> E (8.4 - 2, so 6.4) -> Q (2.1 - 3, cannot be lower than 2, so 2)
0 stacks -> 1 stack -> 2 stacks -> 3 stacks

I should not have to explain this when it's already stated in the original post.
So basically you're trying to say I don't understand.

Without ever thinking that possibly I do understand.

You are stuck on the idea of me being wrong. Except that I'm not. Undertow, with this item, would have a .1 second cooldown with the appropriate runes and masteries. W/E instant combo, charging up 2 stacks of your item. Q cast, base cooldown of ~6.6 (with the runes and masteries), reduced by 2 seconds because of your item and the stack charges (down to 4.6 seconds), then reduced by 4.5 seconds because Olaf picked up his axe. He could, literally, charge up your item indefinitely, until he ran out of mana.

What, exactly, are you arguing?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KobaltKode

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Oh, nevermind what I said about infinite stacking. I think I get what you are doing now and that is fairly powerful reduction. Then I have to ask, doesn't this item favor champs with lower cooldowns to begin with along with resourceless champs?

Also, my bad for not catching your entire vision. You stating that the item stacks infinitely makes it sound like a goal you intended the item to reach! I also believe that this item would have broad implications outside of it's use on AD casters.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KobaltKode

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
So basically you're trying to say I don't understand.

Without ever thinking that possibly I do understand.

You are stuck on the idea of me being wrong. Except that I'm not. Undertow, with this item, would have a .1 second cooldown with the appropriate runes and masteries. W/E instant combo, charging up 2 stacks of your item. Q cast, base cooldown of ~6.6 (with the runes and masteries), reduced by 2 seconds because of your item and the stack charges (down to 4.6 seconds), then reduced by 4.5 seconds because Olaf picked up his axe. He could, literally, charge up your item indefinitely, until he ran out of mana.

What, exactly, are you arguing?
You are kinda right if you don't include the time it requires to throw the axe and actually move to pick it up. You would probably have to drop the Axe exactly infront of you and be semi stationary to make this work...I would think that the access the right combination would give to his ult would be more impressive to you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TealNinje

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KobaltKode View Post
You are kinda right if you don't include the time it requires to throw the axe and actually move to pick it up. You would probably have to drop the Axe exactly infront of you and be semi stationary to make this work...I would think that the access the right combination would give to his ult would be more impressive to you.
You could also set up double length ultimate. In combination with any stun, it's practically an instant kill.

As far as I know, though, that's about the only scenario where his item would be useful, and it'd be broken. In practically any other scenario, basic CDR would be better. The abilities that would benefit the most from it are the ones that are used first. The stacks would have to last at least 3 seconds to be useable for the vast majority of champions.

Making an item that can ONLY be used by a tiny minority is bad. Even Ghostblade and Zeke's Herald CAN be used by characters outside of their target archetypes.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dead Future

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimitlessChaos View Post
The question I have is, what is the biggest problem these types of champions really face?
That sounds like something Xypherous would ask.

Caster/Fighters and Caster/Assassins like Renekton and Pantheon have nothing that compliments their champions as while units. The Bloodthirstier gives a carry 100 AD and 20% lifesteal, while it only really gives 100 AD to them. That's not to say the lifesteal doesn't exist, but balancing them as "they're going to right-click things anyway if they're in melee range, and for good damage" is just plain false.

That particular idea is one that bothers me the most.

Have you ever purchased Frozen Mallet on a champion that just couldn't apply the slow fast enough? Probably once or twice, I imagine. You may even remember how it felt to have such a heavy investment into a utility come crashing down as counter-cc, movement abilities and tenacity chopped away at your very ability to even use the item you spent so much gold on the way it's supposed to be.

That's like playing Pantheon or Renekton and buying any item. You just won't get enough out of things that grant damage. You just won't get enough out of things that grant defense. Every other champion will face you with better innate advantages when shopping.

Since Pantheon's rework, I still never see him played. His gameplay shifted from "max Q to fight, max E to burst, W will become a visible stun at max rank and R will take you places far away" to "max E or you're a loser, why even put more than 1 point in W, ever, get Q just because W sucks so much, and dunk idiots that sit at your turret and have no escape plan as you R". Selling point: crazy AD scaling on Heartseeker Strike, jumpstun utility, and low cooldown ranged poke. Major flaws: life steal is just not worth it and if you don't build some kind of defense you are guaranteed to die. Where others may have all the power of fast attacks or something that innately benefits basic attacks at all times (Irelia, Volibear, Udyr, Riven, Darius, etc, etc, etc, I hope you see where this is going), Pantheon just gets a critical strike when his target is already dead and too stupid to remember Pantheon can do that.

Since Renekton's most-lamented nerf, I barely ever see him played. He went from being able to jungle and fight with lots of sustain on a decent cooldown in a tight radius around himself to being able to either deal damage or die according to what he built, because good luck living long enough to see the next round of spells. This, coming from someone who constantly pushes for 40% CDR with runes, masteries, and boots alone. His ability kit isn't really bad, it's just very unaccommodating when you are trying to gain the most from abilities. Unlike Pantheon, Renekton actually has some form of healing without spell vamp, but if you were smart enough to position correctly and build the right items, your effort is rewarded with a capped heal and a swift kick in the ass. "Good job, too bad you lost some invisible amount of healing that you'll never know about." Before the Hextech Gunblade nerf, Renekton could be built as the gross exaggeration of "Glass Cannon Sustain" with several of them. Before you go and think, "Multiple Gunblades? What are you, trolling?" imagine the staying power of Renekton in battle with 100% spell vamp. That literally WAS me. I've seen Cull the Meek heal over 1000 on three minions alone. I've ran about in team fights with and without minions and dealt so much magic damage in an area that I could see my health going up every second. +22 +22 +22 +22 +22... This was the farthest possible stretch of, "Can be blown to pieces but will fight through challengers who failed to use lethal burst damage," and it wasn't broken at all. It literally balanced itself, no mater how you looked at it.

When the Gunblade nerf came, I was heartbroken and blamed Riot for nerfing an item based on a champion based on the idea that high amounts of hard stats were necessary to compete with other champions (the old Hybrid philosophy). Since then, no other items have been made to replicate this type of Caster/Fighter which mirrors RADCs with life steal in strengths and weaknesses. I still normally HGB for the slow on both Pantheon and Renekton while telling myself it's worth it for the subpar AD and weak spell vamp which only have the smallest effects in their effective AE ratio (1/3 of spell vamp applies to damage dealt by spells that can hit multiple targets, excluding Death Lotus).

So AP Casters can get spell vamp and gain health from their main source of damage (abilities), DPS/Fighters and RADCs can get life steal and gain health from their main source of damage (basic attacks), and actual hybrid champions in the game already get CRAZY INSANE bonus stats or effects (Jax, Akali, Old Kayle), but AD Caster/Fighters can either stack health or go cry in a corner. Fun fact: Hecarim is the only example of a successful AD Caster/Fighter because he gets tremendous sustain from Spirit of Dead (up to 30% true spell vamp, ignoring the built-in limit of spell vamp on AE abilities, and even gaining life based on damage that is not his own).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
An issue with scaling off of the opponent's statistics on an item that also gives defensive statistics is that you aren't encourage to build any offensive statistics on your part.

In the end, they take 20 seconds to kill you going full AP, and yet you take 5 seconds to kill them going full defense. There's a fundamental issue there. If you are going to punish the enemy for stacking offensive statistics, the statistics you should be getting should be almost purely offensive as well.
In a general sense, Hecarim just gains power through his teammates instead of only though himself. He gains so much power from his teammates, however, that the "Trinity Force Tank" build is incredibly popular.

Why actually care when you can just walk into battle and feed off of the innate power of all of the damage abilities your team has combined.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dead Future

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
You could also set up double length ultimate. In combination with any stun, it's practically an instant kill.

As far as I know, though, that's about the only scenario where his item would be useful, and it'd be broken. In practically any other scenario, basic CDR would be better. The abilities that would benefit the most from it are the ones that are used first. The stacks would have to last at least 3 seconds to be useable for the vast majority of champions.

Making an item that can ONLY be used by a tiny minority is bad. Even Ghostblade and Zeke's Herald CAN be used by characters outside of their target archetypes.
FFS it's not a REPLACEMENT for CDR! It's meant to make CDR more effective!

You can take your impractical niche application, any opinion you've ever had, and the nearest object with sharp edges and shove it up your ass!

I cannot and will not argue with a 12 year old hellbent on telling me that something you can already f*cking do with max CDR (8 * .6 - 4.5 = .1) is problematic.

So congratulations! You win! I'm leaving this sh*thole forum that you couldn't be more proud to destroy with your attitude and baseless opinions. You're part of the reason why League's little community of children gets such a bad name for being, well, little children.

Goodbye! You may continue with your regularly scheduled closed-mindedness and ignorance.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TealNinje

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Future View Post
FFS it's not a REPLACEMENT for CDR! It's meant to make CDR more effective!

You can take your impractical niche application, any opinion you've ever had, and the nearest object with sharp edges and shove it up your ass!

I cannot and will not argue with a 12 year old hellbent on telling me that something you can already f*cking do with max CDR (8 * .6 - 4.5 = .1) is problematic.

So congratulations! You win! I'm leaving this sh*thole forum that you couldn't be more proud to destroy with your attitude and baseless opinions. You're part of the reason why League's little community of children gets such a bad name for being, well, little children.

Goodbye! You may continue with your regularly scheduled closed-mindedness and ignorance.
*cough.*

Your item streamlined the process I was describing, without actually doing anything else. You failed to prove any other circumstance where it would be useful. You introduced said item while insulting other item ideas, and then introduced it as if you were worshiping the creators of the game, and that somehow, because of you worshiping them, your item was necessarily better.

Then you started directly insulting me because I commented on a few of those points. I commented that the item wouldn't be useful because of the .5 second stack duration. The only thing you said in response to that? "It's the only way it would be balanced." Nothing else. You actually left the argument sit as "the only way my item would be balanced is if it were useless."

Your posts, as a whole, try to convey the attitude of "I'm better than you are because I am me." You automatically assume you are smarter than other people. Yet you come across a single person who strongly disagrees with you, and you blow up and start insulting them?

It's interesting how you think that one person represents the whole. It's also interesting how you don't think you could be part of the problem, how you think that someone who disagrees with you is automatically inferior to you, and how you think I'm being childish while you are simultaneously proving your immaturity.

If you disagree with my points, prove them wrong. Use actual in-game situations and prove me wrong. Kobalt did, and he pointed out the greatest fallacy with my scenario. Which was fine, since the scenario could only exist in hyperbole. It was meant to serve as an example as to why your item was particularly unusable. The only champion who could effectively use the item, could only do so through a very specific scenario that should never happen, yet in that specific scenario it was stronger than any other item, any other build. More specifically, the item itself is only useful with longer stack duration except for very few champions.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LimitlessChaos

Senior Member

07-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
*cough.*

Your item streamlined the process I was describing, without actually doing anything else. You failed to prove any other circumstance where it would be useful. You introduced said item while insulting other item ideas, and then introduced it as if you were worshiping the creators of the game, and that somehow, because of you worshiping them, your item was necessarily better.

Then you started directly insulting me because I commented on a few of those points. I commented that the item wouldn't be useful because of the .5 second stack duration. The only thing you said in response to that? "It's the only way it would be balanced." Nothing else. You actually left the argument sit as "the only way my item would be balanced is if it were useless."

Your posts, as a whole, try to convey the attitude of "I'm better than you are because I am me." You automatically assume you are smarter than other people. Yet you come across a single person who strongly disagrees with you, and you blow up and start insulting them?

It's interesting how you think that one person represents the whole. It's also interesting how you don't think you could be part of the problem, how you think that someone who disagrees with you is automatically inferior to you, and how you think I'm being childish while you are simultaneously proving your immaturity.

If you disagree with my points, prove them wrong. Use actual in-game situations and prove me wrong. Kobalt did, and he pointed out the greatest fallacy with my scenario. Which was fine, since the scenario could only exist in hyperbole. It was meant to serve as an example as to why your item was particularly unusable. The only champion who could effectively use the item, could only do so through a very specific scenario that should never happen, yet in that specific scenario it was stronger than any other item, any other build. More specifically, the item itself is only useful with longer stack duration except for very few champions.
For what it's worth, you brought the problem to this thread before the OP; you could've been the "bigger" man and not made your first post (which is very childish) but you did, thus starting the wave of negativity around here.

Honestly, I don't know what's going to solve this problem, but something needs to and I think, in the case of Talon, Renekton, Riven and Pantheon (at the least) the idea of an item that functions for them how AD carries see benefit from PD is a good move (PD=more autos=more damage and this is more abilities in a short-term situation; this is what the "AD Caster" needs - something to let them be more active in team fights because right now, they're cooked after they use their four abilities)

I would argue that newer characters almost have this item "baked in" to their kits; look at how often Darius and Diana can do something in a fight: Darius has a short CD on his Q, a lowerable CD on his W and a refreshing ultimate that does damage. Diana has a short CD Q, a very usable passive and an ultimate that not only has no CD if used in-conjunction with Q but has a ridiculously low base CD (only 15.8 or so seconds at rank 1)

So I think this item might be a decent solution but you're not being any "better" than you claim the OP is since you're not contributing. You don't like what he said in someone else's thread? Downvote those posts and post a decent idea in here or on the main forum, but don't march in here and make a childish "Downvoted because I'm mad at you for your posts" post.

Infighting isn't going to help us brainstorm a good item for a class of character that desperately needs it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TealNinje

Senior Member

07-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimitlessChaos View Post
For what it's worth, you brought the problem to this thread before the OP; you could've been the "bigger" man and not made your first post (which is very childish) but you did, thus starting the wave of negativity around here.

You don't like what he said in someone else's thread? Downvote those posts and post a decent idea in here or on the main forum, but don't march in here and make a childish "Downvoted because I'm mad at you for your posts" post.

Infighting isn't going to help us brainstorm a good item for a class of character that desperately needs it.
He insulted other peoples' ideas in his very first line. This has nothing to do with any other thread. I downvoted his original post, and only that post, because he directly insulted other people. I didn't even downvote his post directly insulting me, because I don't care if you insult me. Hell, better off you hate me than anyone else. I've been around long enough that I'm used to anything that can be directed at me.


123