Why do we still go for the bush?

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USnip

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Member

06-25-2012

One reason people feel the need to move out is because early ganks are extremely extremely strong and there's no other viable way to get early vision.


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Dr3x1

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Nome, I've been watching this thread for awhile and I'd like to say something. My 3's team has 127 games at the time of this writing. We don't find bottom brush to be a point of contention at the start of the game very often. In fact, we almost never run straight for it. Instead we carefully poke and prod around in the middle of the map in various bushes until we stumble across the enemy team (which is also rarely in bottom). Interestingly we very often win those initial fights, even though we are the seekers and not the ambushers. Lee sin vision poke OP though to be fair... :P


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SubDraco

Senior Member

06-25-2012

jungle remake


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Billenstein

Senior Member

06-26-2012

What would happen if red and dragon were switched?

What about giving red about half the combined buffs of the SR red/blue? Like, say, 5% cdr, 10-15 mp5, and GP's passive.


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Snoop Nome

Game Designer

06-26-2012
9 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr3x1 View Post
Nome, I've been watching this thread for awhile and I'd like to say something. My 3's team has 127 games at the time of this writing. We don't find bottom brush to be a point of contention at the start of the game very often. In fact, we almost never run straight for it. Instead we carefully poke and prod around in the middle of the map in various bushes until we stumble across the enemy team (which is also rarely in bottom). Interestingly we very often win those initial fights, even though we are the seekers and not the ambushers. Lee sin vision poke OP though to be fair... :P
Right, you guys are probably at a Elo that understands there's no direct value to taking the brush, aside from preventing the opponent from taking the brush. That's in line with the OP's reasoning, which questions the usefulness of the brush itself. It's a noob trap.


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Lertan

Senior Member

06-26-2012

When playing normals, my team goes for FB right off the bat. We go looking for the enemy, not for a bush (which is stationary and far to easy to find anyway). It's like a medieval game of hide and seek, which usually more a game of seek and seek, with nothing but bloodlust driving both sides.

Running straight to the established bush at the bottom of the map is risky, and likely to give away FB if you are a little slow off the mark. Which is usually the case if your starting items take a few clicks to find (btw, when we gonna get custom quick item slots for champs, huh? :P ).

It's quite fun when your hunt lasts until 5 minutes in, bot teams at level 1 or 2, and you clash at some unfortunate place, say, dragon.

It's about fun - this is a game after all - and some people find rushing bottom bush enjoyable. It's kind of a "we want to get right to the action, come at us" spot.

I don't feel it has anything to do with securing resources (other than perhaps FB gold), but just SOMETHING to do for the first 1:30 of the game.

Regarding spawn locking at the start of the game, I really don't think that'd work outside of Dominion. I like that being quick at the start gives you an edge on SR/TT. It rewards people knowing their champs and their builds. It rewards people who know their game plan and get right to it. (again though, quick slots needed. People who got say, boots and pots, are penalised compared to people who grab dorians).


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Goatbear

Senior Member

06-26-2012

With that question answered, how do I begin to change that sub 30 meta? As we've determined even just buying boots and pots can lag you into an early game disadvantage if you're rushing to a teamfight. What is the best way to use the 1:30 advantage of them waiting in the bush for a fight that never shows?

Also, unless I'm wrong, and I don't think I am, creeps don't spawn until the minions do; although, I've never checked and probably should. Maybe if they did it would give us something to do while we wait for the waves to spawn. Or maybe it wouldn't, as some people said, what we really want is to mix it up and see who has the better team.


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Goatbear

Senior Member

06-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Waiting in the bottom brush is highly dependent on the other team being in the bottom brush. It doesn't work if both teams don't want it to work, and it stems from the lack of opposing pre-spawn objectives on the map (see red 'n' blue on SR). Players want something to fight over, so they position themselves to fight over a mutually-designated objective (the bottom brush) because of lack of alternatives, when in fact, there is little intrinsic value in it. That's the game design side of it, anyway :P
Also, thank you for taking the time to post.


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Lertan

Senior Member

06-26-2012

The first creeps spawn at 1:40 I believe, which is about 5-10 seconds before minions clash in bottom lane. There is time to clear say, your sides lower jungle camp, before heading to lanes, and get a little head start on the xp/gold, but given the copious amount of brush near those spawns, risky business invading. Top side spawns again, can be done, but it's a long walk for bot lane then, though if you're solo-bot laning, then you can have top + jungler take the side spawn.

The top jungle buffs come up at 1:55; grez at 2:10 iirc.

You could contest red, but if your team decides to try and take it, you risk being jumped when you're at low health.

Any jungle invading methods, trying to take buffs, could just leave you behind in xp compared to the lanes. Unless you can catch an extended top-laner (ie, over the wall with champs such as lee-sin and shaco), then I don't really find it worth the effort of a full invade. Seen a team try this and end up losing a turret on bot lane by level 3; while they were still at level 1.

It's risky business, BUT, if you can get those early kills quickly, it can be worth it. Especially if you can get your jungler enough gold to jungle faster.

In normals, people will rush that bottom bush, as the engagement will usually be under way by the minute mark, often earlier. That allows for the skrim to be over, respawned and in lane just a little behind minions. It can be hard to come back from 2-3 levels behind and turrets down, as you've then limited your jungle access, all for the sake of perhaps one or two buffs.

I wouldn't call 'bottom bush rushing' a meta, nor really do I think it needs changing. It's an option to go there, either do or don't. If a team does, and they wait too long, they could just end up behind.

People have little reason to NOT go there though. Other than to avoid a potentially bad engagement, you might as well go in and try for an early FB. You can then spend that gold and be back in lane in time for minions. Gives a good early advantage.

It could be tried with starting off some of the non-buff creeps at say 1:00 into the game. That means people can either take those, or perhaps invade and try for FB while the other team is occupied, one potentially already low hp. Would bring it more in line with SR I think.


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Kigrax

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Senior Member

06-26-2012

ITT: RiotNome reveals his natural desire to make the game more casual. 4chan outrage and other news at 11.