Why do we still go for the bush?

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Dethavin

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Understandable Hopefully you'll feel better about it as we proceed. To explicate further on the original issue of brush, whenever you have a single objective that spawns early (especially a brush position), early game devolves into a race to see which team can reach that point first. Whether or not there's extrinsic value (such as control of a buff, or even gold) to that objective is separate from the conversation, because the intrinsic value of the objective (the ability to control another objective, or the superior positioning obtained by sitting in the brush) adds unwanted gameplay by creating that initial rush. Players don't have the time to buy their items, it heavily punishes players who connect to the game a bit late, and worst of all, it means that if you are unable to reach the objective fast enough, you're probably going to feed.
Then why not simply delay the spawn of said spawns to prevent that? That would seem a very simple and basic fix like the 1:55 delay on SR for Blue and Red


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Tlaon

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Understandable Hopefully you'll feel better about it as we proceed. To explicate further on the original issue of brush, whenever you have a single objective that spawns early (especially a brush position), early game devolves into a race to see which team can reach that point first. Whether or not there's extrinsic value (such as control of a buff, or even gold) to that objective is separate from the conversation, because the intrinsic value of the objective (the ability to control another objective, or the superior positioning obtained by sitting in the brush) adds unwanted gameplay by creating that initial rush. Players don't have the time to buy their items, it heavily punishes players who connect to the game a bit late, and worst of all, it means that if you are unable to reach the objective fast enough, you're probably going to feed.
Would it be possible to have a period where players are forced to stay at spawn, as in Dominion?


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Snoop Nome

Game Designer

06-25-2012
7 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethavin View Post
Then why not simply delay the spawn of said spawns to prevent that? That would seem a very simple and basic fix like the 1:55 delay on SR for Blue and Red
Well, the duality of objectives on SR make it a non-issue; there's real strategic choice in which objective you choose, though speed still makes a difference. That would be a good fix for Red on TT, though it does not resolve the brush "issue".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlaon View Post
Would it be possible to have a period where players are forced to stay at spawn, as in Dominion?
I like this idea, but I don't think it's something we can do for the foreseeable future because it needs buy-in from a lot of people. I think if SR set the precedent for it, TT could use it as well.


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Dethavin

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Well, the duality of objectives on SR make it a non-issue; there's real strategic choice in which objective you choose, though speed still makes a difference. That would be a good fix for Red on TT, though it does not resolve the brush "issue".


I like this idea, but I don't think it's something we can do for the foreseeable future because it needs buy-in from a lot of people. I think if SR set the precedent for it, TT could use it as well.
Honestly I dont like the idea of SR having a forced "at spawn" direction, that ruins way to much play, from invades to defending etc. etc. thats a big part of the game and sets the tone as well. I cannot see people wanting to change that aspect of SR


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Snoop Nome

Game Designer

06-25-2012
8 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethavin View Post
Honestly I dont like the idea of SR having a forced "at spawn" direction, that ruins way to much play, from invades to defending etc. etc. thats a big part of the game and sets the tone as well. I cannot see people wanting to change that aspect of SR
Right, and that's the reason it's not done on SR. Conceptually I think it's a great idea; it's very similar to the buy timer in Counterstrike, in that it evens the playing field and reduces the necessity for speed and gives players ample time to think about their purchase (not that you needed to do it in CS) and properly plan out a strategy. I used to run a buy macro and join servers without the buy timer... the advantage was phenomenal :P


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PurpleURP

Senior Member

06-25-2012

nome,
simple fix is to just get rid of the small tri wolves top and quad wraiths mid. Have the non major camps always spawn tri golums mid and double golums top. This way people can actually develope consistent jungle strategies and the golums that spawn at 1:40 on either side are a good enough objective to fight over level 1.


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Wow Such Juke

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Note that I said a single contestable resource. Important early game resources work well when there's duality, like on SR. On TT, the important of early red (and early dragon) work against champion viability.
I don't see how you could have a duality in the 3s jungle with Red buff, unless you made the small camps into Red camps for both sides... but then you would also probably have to add in some small camps to compensate for that, and there really isn't much room map design-wise for more jungle camps. So then the simple solution would be to get rid of Red entirely.. but what would you replace it with? Or would you replace it at all?

EDIT: Maybe add in a perma-sight area around "Red Buff" (I add this in quotations for creativity's sake) and maybe even "Dragon" so that each team can see the other preparing to take the objective? That will give the other team, if not TONS of warning, enough time to realize "oh, hey, we should probably try to stop these guys." Though I suppose that doesn't solve the issue of snowballing from consecutive objective controls. I don't really have an issue with that, however, because in my opinion, the better team has the right to control the objectives. The problem, I think, if I understand what you're saying, is that there's really no other option objective-wise to take to get the other team back in the game; i.e. in SR when Team 1 is ahead they're going to do Baron, but Team 2 has the option to grab Red/Blue Buff as well as dragon during that time to lessen the impact.

Am I on the right track here?


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Fat of the Land

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Senior Member

06-25-2012

I usually ask my team to help me clear the middle jungle camp before we go to our respective lanes. Sometimes the enemy team shows up and we get some kills, but even if they don't we'll hit level 2 before them unless they did the same thing.


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DrX6x

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Recruiter

06-25-2012

or u no u could not go to bot bush and go to there bot jungle bush and gank the solo or the top bush and gank the solo or not gank at all and clear jungle or a plethora of different things. plane and simple bot bush fights are fun and a good way to get the game in high gear. Which is what 3v3 is all about and why I only play 3v3. I find 5v5 to slow and to forgiving after playing 3v3 so much.


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5371EI

Senior Member

06-25-2012

tl:dr baddies rush bush no matter what because they want to fight something. It's not to control anything, they just want to hear first blood. FACT