HP Items

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Rebonack

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Jax is a pretty good reason :P
Design-wise, it's generally dangerous to resort to global bonuses (or penalties). They're a bit of a last resort, because there will always be collateral damage. A better way to handle it (IMO), would be to replace Deathcap with a similar, cheaper item that has some light defensive bonus. In fact, we've already been testing an item like that :P
Jax rarely has much more than 100 AP when all is said and done with most common builds. If the Percentile Magic Penetration aura on scar were replaced with a percentile AP amp I really don't think it would make that huge of a difference on Jax' damage.

It would, however, make a difference on champs that are shooting for 300+ Ability Power.

Quote:
Or bring back Zonya's Ring. Was too strong on SR because it gave casters too much, but in dominion casters are getting too little. Seems like the item would work here.
This is the best idea.


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Phourc

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauldrath View Post
How about:
Unique passive: Your spells deal damage as if you had 8% of your target's maximum health in bonus AP.

So, a spell with a 1.0 ratio would deal 8% damage, but one with a 0.5 ratio would only deal 4%. Lower cooldown spells tend to have lower ratios, as well.
Or it could do a flat % of health with a sheen-like proc per time limit, that's really the only way I see an item like that being good for people other than Ryze xP

Edit: Yeah... at that point you'd have to make it not stack with sheen to keep it off bruisers. Other options:

- DoT effect like brand's passive, so no matter how fast your character spams the damage is fairly static

- a 'charge' system like Akali or Corki's ult, where ever 10 seconds you get a charge, can store up to three, each charge is consumed to add %health damage to a spell

Though thinking about these... Do AP casters blow all their spells at once or spread them out more evenly? I'm trying to think of how an item could be made good for one and not the other...

Guess it's a good thing I'm not on live team xP


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
Or it could do a flat % of health with a sheen-like proc per time limit, that's really the only way I see an item like that being good for people other than Ryze xP
One word: Evelynn.
I don't want to think about how powerful Eve would become if Hate Spike had a % health sheen-like spell-activated proc.
There would be absolutely NOTHING you could do to escape her ganks, cause you'd die too fast.

The problem with this type of item is that it would favor the spammy mages like Ryze, Cass, and Eve, and leave the mages with longer cooldowns like Brand and Veigar in the dust.


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Volandum

Senior Member

06-15-2012

This sounds like just putting a skill-activated Martial Cadence on an item, which is okay but I think it would make it really, really easy to burst people down.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

06-15-2012

I do not think that health items make the gameplay worse at all.
My major grip with items right now is how much anti Autoattack hate there is in itemization (thronmail, frozen hearth, Randuin's, do you need all 3?) And how it's clear AP champs are balanced around getting rabdon deathcap. An item that is hard to get in dominion, so ap champs that are succesfull are those that do not need that item.


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Nincompooop

Junior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
So a question I'd like to ask here is whether high-end defensive items are conducive to healthy gameplay on Dominion. Variety is an issue we can still solve.
I play arab frequently and find that with tank characters you need those high end defensive items or else you WILL get torn apart from carries. Unless you're shen. .


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Infirc

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Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nincompooop View Post
I play arab frequently and find that with tank characters you need those high end defensive items or else you WILL get torn apart from carries. Unless you're shen. .
Arab is still a 5v5 teamfight there are no skirmishes, the Dominion itemization balance should be based around skirmishes not a custom game mode that copies the fights of summonner's rift which are completely different fights, i do enjoy Arabs but balancing the game for it can be done on the soon to come proving grounds not on the crystal scar.


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Nincompooop

Junior Member

06-15-2012

Just saying hopefully they consider that when making the aram/arab map/mode.


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rh0dy2

Member

06-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I understand that defensive properties are valued heavily on Dominion. I'm asking if it has a positive impact on game health though. For example, my understanding of the Dominion tier list is that tanks and fighters reign at the top (Wukong, Rammus, Alistar, Yorick, Urgot), with a few exceptions (Janna, Kassadin). From a game design perspective, if tanky/mobile champions are precluding the viability of non-tanky/mobile champions, then items that boost these properties should inherently be limited to promote balance and variability.

That leads me back to my original question, which is whether high-end defensive items like Warmog's or Frozen Mallet are conducive to healthy gameplay.

To be honest, it seems like any class that scales primarily through items is at a disadvantage in Dom, where the late game is truncated heavily and games often end after 3 or 4 items into your build. The early weakness becomes a liability with no late game trade off.

One class of champions that falls into this trap (the other being AP, as Sauron discussed already far better than I can) are the ranged AD carries. The offensive synergy of 3 multiplicative stats outscales the 2 multiplicative defensive stats, and that, coupled with range, makes them the hard counter to bruiser and tanky DPS. In the absence of a ranged AD carry, it's no wonder tanky DPS are so strong, and items like Warmogs can't be introduced.

In my humble, low elo opinion, removing Warmogs is justified, but removing Frozen Mallet is the wrong route to balance. I find it refreshing to have a mode where a lot of nonviable melee champs in SR can be played, and I think that should be preserved. Rather than nerf these champs by removing all sources of high end health items, I think it'd be better to provide ranged AD carries with some means to contribute more to the team and bring them onto the same level as other roles.

I'm glad to see a Rioter finally around talking with the community. Thanks RiotNome!


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

06-19-2012

It helps to remember you'll usually have ~10k gold when a Dominion game ends, so "mid-game items" that on SR otherwise occupy an important slot are very good on Dominion:
Haunting Guise
Spirit Visage
Executioner's Calling.

Getting 1.5k gold items instead of 2.5k gold, and 2.5k gold instead of 3.5k gold is often a good choice, as two of them will do better than one more expensive item, and unlike on SR you're unlikely to have all slots with end game items.