Locked Camera Discussion

First Riot Post
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boourns

UI Designer

04-16-2012
6 of 82 Riot Posts

I am still not convinced that flipping the camera won't mess up communication and we're *definitely* not flipping the camera for everyone on purple team. We would not up-end the experience of the vast majority of players in that way. If the map were actually symmetrical across the river we could do it because it wouldn't matter which side you were on, but it's not and dragon/baron/jungle layout does matter. We would not, all of a sudden, mirror the map when you're on purple because that would be incredibly disorienting for players.


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IS131c7cb285e774

Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
That's what I see when I do it on my machine. If you can reproduce this not happening I would very much like to know! That's a bug and would affect our stat collection.

Specifically we look for LockCamera=1 in your game.cfg in the config/ directory of your install. I had QA check that this gets set correctly when we were pulling the stats for locked camera, but if you can find cases where this is broken please give us a set of steps to reproduce it.

If for some reason you always switch off locked camera by pressing 'y' before exiting, we would not know you were using locked camera during the game. However that also suggests that you are successfully using an unlocked camera...
I can confirm the issue where you must press Y sometimes on the beginning of the game to lock the camera even when you use it locked on the end of your previous game. Still, it doesn't happen every time. I'll try to notice if there is any pattern on that issue and I'll post here information if I can find some reliable data.


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boourns

UI Designer

04-16-2012
7 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalafai View Post

Now to tackle the list of proposed solutions...

Flipping the camera for purple team:

Argument Against: Flips all important position of Barron Nasher and Dragon.

My rebuttal to the argument: Unflips jungle. It's more important to me when I play an AD carry to grab the small golem camp before minion waves meet to be the first to level 2, than it is for me to worry about someone trying to solo dragon the moment it spawns. If I have lane supperiority by that point, I can temp mid while mr AP and Jungler and Bruiser tackle any attempted dragoning.

Argument Against: Well, it does make front attacks and laning easier, but it makes purple teams have more trouble circling around behind towers to get into position for teamfights.

My rebuttal: Wha?
Expanded: What do I care?
Expandeder: How often does this come into play for my entire team even if I'm winding through the jungle to pick off retreating champions.
Expandederest: Why the hell am I zigzagging through the jungle with a slow AD carry with massively long skillshots when I could be attacking from the front where it is both safer, and I can get to in time even iff my team is circling.

Argument Against: Causes people communication not able to tell which way is top or bottem.

My rebuttal: Why are you communicating with blue team, the only people who aren't flipped as well?
I don't understand what you mean by unflip the jungle... it is fundamentally not symmetrical and both teams need to have the same geographic layout on the map so you are... you know... playing on the same map.

I don't think you understand, when you play with locked camera the camera angle makes it so that you see more above you on the screen than below. So even as blue you are going to face the same viewing angle problems as purple if you approach as fight from top to bottom. For example, if you're taking baron or the purple jungle and a fight breaks out at your blue, you will be approaching the fight from purple side and still face visibility problems. This is another reason why I don't believe flipping the camera is a good solution. It just hides the problem most of the time.

Also, as I said in my other post. We're almost certainly not flipping the camera for the entire teams just because someone may or may not be playing with locked camera on purple. That's making the experience more disorienting for everyone to help a small number of people == net negative player value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalafai View Post
Make spacebar disable camera lock on hold for locked players like it enables camera lock on hold for unlocked players.

Argument Against: Play unlocked NOOB

Rebuttal: *close thread*

Argument Against: Press Y, NOOB!

Rebuttal: Already do, but holding and toggling are apparnatly different enough you don't do it yourself, and it seems a very easy change.

Argument Against: Not as easy as holding spacebar the whole time!

Rebuttal: Hold spacebar for 40 minutes, say it was easy, and I'll never argue with you again.
Making space toggle on and off depending on whether you have locked camera is something we can definitely do. Good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalafai View Post
Change Camera angle closer to straight down on the map.

Argument Against: You wouldn't be able to tell champions appart.

Rebuttal: I'm pretty sure Chogoth's back is different from TF's hat.

Argument Against: You wouldnt be able to stare at Sivir's legs while she runs.

Rebuttal: I'll take overhead of her rack anyday anyways.

But really, that's a joke entry.

Argument Against: Your field of view has been precisely calculated and this would affect game balance.

Rebuttal: Yeah right. Rather than play full screen at 16:10 resolution, I play windowed at 16:9, and can see 2 tank minions farther on either side. This has affected my combat, and the directions I pick to gank from. I really don't think you care that much.
All I can tell you is that's the direction I've gotten from the game designers. We have gameplay reasons for not allowing you to zoom out farther. To the extent that we will ban you if you try to hack around it with a 3rd party program. Search the general forums or try to catch Morello's attention if you want more details, that's outside my expertise, unfortunately.


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Kg the Jerk

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Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I am still not convinced that flipping the camera won't mess up communication and we're *definitely* not flipping the camera for everyone on purple team. We would not up-end the experience of the vast majority of players in that way. If the map were actually symmetrical across the river we could do it because it wouldn't matter which side you were on, but it's not and dragon/baron/jungle layout does matter. We would not, all of a sudden, mirror the map when you're on purple because that would be incredibly disorienting for players.
what about an option to flip the UI to the top of the screen. that way when people on purple lock the camera their stats dont get in the way. might help


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boourns

UI Designer

04-16-2012
8 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumyr View Post
Just throwing this out there, but the ONLY reason I would (and have) considered using locked camera is because when the VFX start flying in a team fight, I often lose track of my champ. Locked camera would solve that for me.

I don't use it because there are too many other associated problems with it, but I'll say this: if you gave me a big **** glowing arrow or beam of light pointing straight at MY champ all the time, I'd never even consider it ever again.

And I mean a really, really, super obvious thing, here. Not something subtle like a different color on my health bar.
Yes, we would like to make your champion more visible in the chaos of a team fight! That's a different discussion though. Also... your mouse cursor


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TheDarckness

Junior Member

04-16-2012

This is a question that relates to some of the issues listed here.

Why cant we just zoom out the camera more?

Wouldn't that make a lot these issues go away?
Or would that make it more unfair for people with bigger monitors?


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Snakerot

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
That's what I see when I do it on my machine. If you can reproduce this not happening I would very much like to know! That's a bug and would affect our stat collection.

Specifically we look for LockCamera=1 in your game.cfg in the config/ directory of your install. I had QA check that this gets set correctly when we were pulling the stats for locked camera, but if you can find cases where this is broken please give us a set of steps to reproduce it.

If for some reason you always switch off locked camera by pressing 'y' before exiting, we would not know you were using locked camera during the game. However that also suggests that you are successfully using an unlocked camera...
My camera needs to always be re-locked at the beginning of matches. I'm not sure what else you would need to know from my end to fix it though.


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IS131c7cb285e774

Member

04-16-2012

Also, I've a suggestion:

Flip (and mirror) the UI on demand. (Pressing a pre-assigned key to flip the bottom menus to the top and vice-versa)

Argument Against: It may be obstructive on some occasions, so you may have to manage to press a key to get the UI on the default position.

Rebuttal: It will give more vision to the purple's side bottom lane without having to reduce the UI's size too much or flip the camera. Also, the top information (time and target information) is far less intrusive than the bottom bar plus mini-map composition.


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Best Atheist NA

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
If you have locked camera on when you exit the game it will still be on when you join your next one. I just tested again to make sure.
Not for me. I have to turn locked camera on before every match. Looks like we found the basis of the skewed data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varitul View Post
That doesn't seem right to me, but meh. I played locked consistently, yet I do have to lock pretty often at the start of a new game. I dont see why I would unlock at the end though. but if you say so, I'd take your work on it.
Same. I have to hit 'Y' before every match, and I don't turn it off right before the game ends.


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Ravechaosknight

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Boourns, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I must lock my Camera every time I start a game. I know this because the camera always shoots off to a corner of the map when a game starts.(Typically either end of the river.)

I'm one of the fraction of the players who plays with the camera constantly locked. The only time I ever feel safe unlocking is early during the laning phase so I can make sure I have a handle my lanes situation. After that though, if there is even the slightest chance I'll encounter an enemy my camera stays locked.

Also, occasionally when my craptop overheats, the camera will unlock its self. Not fun to be in the middle of the heat of battle and a little too excitedly aim a skillshot only to have the camera zoom away. xD (By the by, I only use the icons next to the minimap top access menu's and set things etc.)