Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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82kill

Junior Member

02-11-2012

I still don't understand why people keep saying Rupture is OP and 'Anti-fun'.
When I hear anti-fun, I just hear an excuse. Figure out how to beat the 'OP' champ or skill. It's a team game. There are 4 other champions on the team that can help you, as well as a multitude of various items.

Something is anti-fun because you just think "That's OP. It's not my fault. I can't do anything about it. Please fix this." instead of "That's really strong, and annoying. How can I beat it?"

__________________________________________

If it's early game, rupture doesn't even do that much dmg. Get wards, prepare, stay by towers, or get help and counter gank. He's not that hard to kill if you have support. Get HP pots too or a salve or whatever. There are plenty of things you can do about rupture. Just depends on what heroes you have on your team available. Example: if you have prophet, just have him tp in, and sprout him, you stand there for a good amount of the duration or even hit back if you're ranged or use your spells while prophet also Autoattacks him.

Late game? cc/bkb/pipe/mek....


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Turtlerocket

Senior Member

02-13-2012

Zileas.
Y U MAKE ME READ ALL 282 POSTS!!!


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Darktire

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Senior Member

02-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlerocket View Post
Zileas.
Y U MAKE ME READ ALL 282 POSTS!!!
I started to...but then I didn't.


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mayipora

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Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darktire View Post
I started to...but then I didn't.
I just finished reading all 282 red posts...
Why all the zileas hate..Isn't this an awesome thread that explains some of their basic principles? Not all companies communicates with players and shares their inner secrets.


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Faith in Robots

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Junior Member

02-14-2012

So depressing. DOTA 2 not only has the resources that lets you learn what each champion does, but you can click the enemy champion in game and hover over their abilities. LoL has no such resource... you either have to check it out of game or online.

Since when is actually learning how to play the game not fun? By simplifying every champion you make, you condemn this game to never evolve. It's up to champion design to change the way the "meta" goes and how champions and teams interact with each other, not the player. Start by creating the tools that allows for creative gameplay (including things that actually require effort and skill on both sides to best utilized effectively) and the players can take it from there.

So sad that such fun ideas such as Morphling's stat changes (which translate perfectly to LoL with AD and AP concepts) will never see the light of day in this game because they're too "complicated". Instead we'll see 10 more regular AD carries that have a dash, flat skill shot nuke ultimate and 2 other rehashed abilities.

This game is going to the dogs and the "principles" listed here are stagnating champion design and creativity.

It's sad.


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Terajn

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Member

02-16-2012

Thumb's up. Though I am not keen on the art with the umbrella as it has been leaked.
http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflege...piderqueen.jpg

A spider queen should look more classy; and more spider-like. We already have a champion with 4 limbs and two human resembling arms.

Why not make the spider queen similar to Shyv's ultimate. Just with 8 legs, the two "arms," being the largest of those.

Somehow an umbrella should be included.


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BACKWARDS REGGIN

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits, so it might actually create fun on both sides, instead of fun on one and weak anti-fun on another. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
I applaud riot for trying so well to please everyone and I reckon your super hard wormk, but I ask myself:

Why do you guys feel the compelling need to protect the oh-so-weak and unstable feelings of your poor little players, instead of just going for a strong, solid and consistent game design. Who cares if a few pimpled kids who won't ever get laid go and nerd rage? Why is it such a big deal?

Your "anti-fun" and arguments here are very, very, very subjective, theoretical points of views into something UNSCIENTIFIC and SUBJECTIVE which is game design and the way the human mind could perceive it. If you guys think you've got all of it pinned down and your little terms highlighted in bold are just it, let me facepalm. The workings of the human mind (which is different across individuals, cultures, places, times, etc.) are far too complex to narrow them down like this. Psychology is a PhD and it's not even a pure and exact science, it's closer to humanities, and it's filled with unending debates.

So instead of going mega theorycraft with super complex terms just make cool heroes with flashy abilities that do stuff. I think there is a lot of OVERTHINKING and you are maybe trying to do too much and trying too hard.

Sorry if I sound like an ass


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IS1c5019c283e69d4080426

Senior Member

02-16-2012

I don't understand a couple of these:

1) How is mana-burn "anti fun".? You could apply it to a delayed skillshot, and it's VERY satisfying to use when you think you've just prevented an enemy from using spells.
"Oh but some champions don't have mana"... That's called counter-picking...


2) Why are global abilities so frowned upon?
I understand that a global TELEPORT would be a good idea, but global skillshots are really good ideas. Why not have more? Why isn't Leona's ult global? It could be a great way for her to assist fights, could make her a good support, etc.

3) MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL.
Re-positioning on allies. This is supposedly super tabu, but I think they're just selling their players short on this one. The ability to teleport an ally (think red alert's crono-sphere) would be super fun to use, both on the offense and on the defense. And if you screw it up, that's just the game.
Also, add a pull style ability that can be used on allies. Seriously, are you THAT worried that a couple of sad losers will use it to get their allies killed?
"OH well some people would use it to troll !" People don't use anivia's wall to troll, so why not have more of those?


Lastly, on false choice.
Nautilus is pretty much this with his ultimate.
Dredge line is a pretty cool skillshot, but since I can just on-hit knock-up someone on command, landing it is a lot easier than it should be.

Same on Xerath.

Stunning someone should be challenging, but oh hey I have these 3 aoe skills that hit almost instantly...


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GarnetJewel

Senior Member

02-16-2012

burden of knowledge isn't a reason. EVERYTHING is burden of knowledge.
knowing that blitz's grab can be blocked by minions is burden
knowing wtf zil's ult does is burden


and complaining about the stone award in bayonnetta is just saying you dont like being told you lost. hell at least they give you points for the stone award. In contra if you fail to maintain a certain stage ranking theres you get a cutscene were the bad guy comes out of the sky and kills you. Losing is part of the game its not something that should be covered up (you died 10 times have an achievment called keep trying!) why not get rid of the defeat message in LoL? Let's make it so that the announcer never says any shout-outs to the enenmy. If the enemy gets a penta-kill it should only say that to the enemy.


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That Other Guy

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Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Conflicted Purpose
This one is not a super strong anti-pattern, but sometimes it's there. A good example of this would be a 500 damage nuke that slows enemy attack speed by 50% for 10 seconds (as opposed to say, 20%), on a 20 second cooldown. At 50%, this is a strong combat initiation disable... but at 500 damage it's a great finisher on someone who is running... but you also want to use it early to get the disable -- even though you won't have it avail by the end of combat usually to finish. This makes players queasy about using the ability much like in the optimization case, but it's a slightly different problem. If the ability exists for too many different purposes on an explicit basis, it becomes confusing. this is different from something like blink which can be used for many purposes, but has a clear basic purpose -- in that place, players tend to just feel creative instead.
Reign of Anger: When Renekton is below 50% health he generates 50% more fury from all sources.
being low health is bad but he has an ability that encourages you to run around with below 50% health? Fix plz

And please make him stop stunning himself when he casts Ruthless Predator while you're at it.